Is Not Taking Any Shit From An Employer A Bad Thing?
Is Not Taking Any Shit From An Employer A Bad Thing?
I understand that not everyone is fortunate to have money saved to be able to have the leeway to leave jobs whenever they feel like it and so forth. But I just feel like people have lost their sense of self-respect when it comes down to employment.
I am a firm believer that if you are working at a toxic place and are being harassed or bullied, to stand up to that behavior and tell them that you're not going to take their shit, and if they continue you fucking quit and never look back.
I have known people who have not had a savings who have done this in the past and they end up finding a decent job that doesn't treat them like shit. Do you feel like job Seekers don't defend themselves anymore?
Not as bad as it was pre-covid, but yes, this is still definitely a fucking thing...
I appear to be immune to it, I'm retired military and went looking for work more as something to do than something to pay bills, and literally nobody gives me shit about anything, I have a very obvious no-fucks dispositon. I see how they treat coworkers though and seriously wonder how the fuck the state of what people believe individual liberty should be has gotten this fucked.
I literally watched someone hand over their cell phone to a manager so they could go through their Facebook messages a couple days ago... That manager has never even asked for my phone number, and I'm 100% certain she wouldn't ask for my phone. She just pushes certain people because she knows she can.
Wow, taking someones personal property doesn't even sound legal. That is messed up.
You definitely get it. You know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. This behavior is prevalent, and I feel like ppl cower and don't stand up for themselves bc of losing their job.
In my opinion, it doesn't matter. You need to show them that you mean business and don't care who they are that you're not gunna take their bullshit.
You're not a fucking slave, and people who work for you need to be treated with respect.
The moment you show them its 'ok' to walk all over you. It's done. You let them know you'll tolerate being treated like shit and they are just going to push you around.
You've proven you're not valuable at that point your disposable.
I'm certain when they were interviewing you and you told them about your military experience, their assholes receded into their bowels.
At that moment they knew that if they hire you, they have to leave you alone and let you do your job. Because idk? You're a fucking adult?
It's crazy man
People probably don't want to lose their job because they can't afford to. You acknowledged it yourself in your OP, most people don't have the money to just leave a job. I could probably afford to be out of work for a little while, but I've been applying for jobs for ages with no luck... So I'm not exactly confident even my reasonable nest egg would last me until I found something.
It's one of those prisoner dilemma things.
If everyone refused to put up with shit like a manager looking through your phone, it wouldn't happen. The employer wouldn't have any employees and they'd be done.
But enough people make the optimal-for-themselves choice of putting up with it in exchange for food and money. You can't really blame them. Do you trust your coworkers?
We should have stronger worker protections and unions, but it's a long path from here to there.
Sounds like your background is very different to others. Most people have their entire lives tied to their job, through no push of their own. Especially in the US where your very healthcare and family healthcare plans rely solely on keeping your job. Not to mention food in their mouths, education, car and you might even have a house to lose whether mortgage or just rent. Leaving your family homeless, especially when so many are already just making it week to week, month to month, without any opening for rest.
Don't get it mixed up, people don't stay in shitty situations because they enjoy it. And corporations has put lots of lobbying around ensuring you are dependent on them so that they have the power.
Why do you think they freak out of unions or free health care or anything that gives power back to the employee.
But, like, there are multiple jobs in the world. The alternative to working for Company A is supposed to be instead working for Company B, not being evicted from society.
I know and that's what bothers me. It's the fear. I feel we need to fucking unite
You're right, but creating an entire movement isn't easy :p.
Companies will shut down an entire store before they let the staff unite in some way such as create a union for something as simple as fair pay.
They'll get government involvement to stop strikes from happening.
They'll use high paid teams of lawyers and rigid contract obligations that you signed when starting if you try typical legal action.
And hardest of all, they use the narrative "if you're in a shit job, that's your fault for not moving". So that the fault will always be yours and they are never required to change. And what sucks worse is the true reality is that except for the occasional unicorn job, most of them are all shit like that (or turn that way at some point).
As a unionist…have I got the solution for you!
Problem is that each person defines what "taking shit" is, for them personally, differently. To draw an extreme, if you're being physically assaulted, anyone would call that bullshit. But what about criticism, which some people handle better than others, and is an important part of developing skills?
So, it really is going to vary quite a bit from individual to individual, and situation to situation. Depending as much on the receiver as the shit-giver.
That said, yes, I do think workers tend to give up a bit too much of their own power these days, just in general. Unions help with that.
Unionize. Get union jobs. This helps with stopping what you’re talking about.
You're right. That's why most big companies tell people not to unionize, or that it's not necessary. It means they can continue to pay people terribly and treat them poorly. Knowing it's happening next door means less flight risk of those treated poorly.
There is a reason big US corps spend millions of dollars every year on anti-union propaganda. If they’re not worried about spending that much money, how much do you think they are stealing from your labour?
As someone who's never been in a union job, what happens if your boss is just kind of a dick? Can you go to your union rep to handle it or is that outside the scope?
I only have one anecdote. A friend of mine was having trouble at work where their boss was giving them shit about sick time (they had COVID). Friend got a meeting with the boss and the union rep on their side. They said it was like the difference between representing yourself at court and having a lawyer.
I have been homeless and I have been well-paid while taking shit from my employer. Taking shit while well paid was way harder on my mental and physical health. Homelessness was uncomfortable and scary, but taking shit while being highly paid degraded me, made me weaker, made me less happy, made me slowly but steadily think less of myself.
Wow I'm sorry you had to experience that man. I know better things are on their way to you.
From what you've said, what would you say to the ppl who think taking shit from an employer is 'fine' ?
Either it’s not shit they’re taking, or it’s not fine.
The mismatch between respectful treatment and non-respectful treatment will cause a constant drain on energy and health, and it will recalibrate one’s own sense of self worth via the mechanism called “cognitive dissonance”.
How does cognitive dissonance come into play here? If a person says their being treated in an unacceptable manner, but they behave as if it’s okay for people to treat them that way, the difference between these will cause cognitive dissonance. Given the brain works to reduce cognitive dissonance over time, if the person doesn’t quit then it will alter their sense of boundaries and what is acceptable. In short their self image as to their level of dignity will fall. They will come to view themselves as someone to whom it is acceptable yo act abusively.
And a person it’s “okay” to abuse is a low thing indeed.
It will manifest in some way. Likely there will be a reduction in self-care (why take care of someone not worthy of being taken care of?). It can manifest as resentment and hatred toward others. A person can become really touchy and self-righteous, as a compensation for the creeping subconscious belief that they are worthless.
Because the cognitive dissonance operates on other levels too. If they try to maintain their self worth, sometimes they’ll try by tearing down others. They’ll distract from the feeling of unworthiness by seeking to establish that others aren’t worthy. This can be attacks on others’s character, arbitrary abuse of others.
It can manifest in a desperate attempt to gain respect through people pleasing. That can lead to overpromising, which eventually becomes broken promises, low performance reviews, and termination.
And the cognitive dissonance operates in the mind of the manager as well. Let’s say a manager is exhibiting two conflicting beliefs:
- I’m a good person who treats people fairly (mental thought), VS
- I’m treating this person poorly.
How does the manager’s mind resolve this conflict to reduce cognitive dissonance? One way is it finds excuses to punish the person. In order to create congruence between “I’m a good a manager” and “I’m treating this person poorly”, one way to bridge that gap is to add in “They did something wrong”.
Generally speaking, abuse transforms the abused person for as long as they acquiesce to it. It also transforms the abuser. Neither person benefits in terms of mental health. Both may be engaging in the pattern out of a mistaken belief it will bring them financial benefit. But long term, abuser and victim are both poisoned psychologically by their two, independent, decisions to allow the abuse to exist.
One might even go so far as to say groups of people have cognitive dissonance acting at the collective level (individually occurring in each mind, but interacting in complementary ways to enable and support each other). At a collective level, a society might proclaim “All people are inherently valuable”, but if that society allows abuse to continue, embedded into its institutions, that conflicts with the stated societal value, and it starts to produce a new unconscious (and therefore harder to grapple with and control) belief that “People are shit”.
I am not kidding, at all, when I say that my health was fine when I was homeless, but my health suffered massively when I put up with abuse at work. These findings are backed up by scientific studies on heart attacks: turns out if you compare heavy workload vs lack of respect, the lack of respect is a better predictor of heart attacks than is the heavy workload.
And in my case I didn’t even keep the job. Those mechanisms I described led to my status within the company falling and falling. I got overloaded with work and not listened to when I had issues. I eventually got fired. So for me at least, trying to sacrifice my dignity for money just straight up failed.
I now make $47k, and my finances are more stable than when I was making $105k.
I don’t know about others, but for me money doesn’t even work right for me if I’m not acting according to my conscience. I saved nothing during that time I tried to sacrifice my dignity.
It’s a real life example of a “deal with the devil”. He promises you great things, but ultimately the terms of the deal are that you lose your soul.
In the words of one of my favorite psychology professors:
If you ignore that thing that’s calling you forth, you will pay for it like you cannot possibly imagine.
That sentence echoed in my head as I wallowed in abuse (a relationship this time, not a job). I was trying to accept it. But a little voice inside me would not accept it. It said “this is wrong. It can be better”, and that quote scared me.
Because abuse isn’t level. It gets worse and worse the longer you put up with it. It only feels level because as the abuse gets worse, your ability to perceive it as abuse is getting worse at the same time.
It’s a pathway to ruin. And there are forms of ruin worse than having to sleep in a homeless shelter, having to carry a knife to defend against psychos, worse than extreme hunger, sleep deprivation.
That’s what I would say, if I thought there was any chance they’d listen.
ACCEPTING ABUSE DOES NOT WORK
In my field I see lots of people taking shit for no good reason. Of course there are those with little choice, but many could just easily tell their boss to go fuck himself and still.. they rather eat shit.
Fucking why !?!? This God like complex needs to be stripped away from these Assholes
Everyone’s circumstances are different. Finding a new job is a huge opportunity cost, typically requiring large amounts of time and money as the search gets extended.
I make healthcare related calls on the clock, because I am forced to get healthcare through my employer, so to me, it is a work related matter.
I like my boss though, he gets it.
In a lot of cities there just aren't any opportunities. All the businesses have banded to together to abuse employees. So you can suck it up, or you can be a really proud homeless person.
Or you can move, you know.
Sometimes people can't do that for reasons like family members. For instance I've lived away from my hometown for years, but now my parents are getting older and I don't want to be 800 miles away currently. Or say your spouse has a job they're satisfied with.
I did, but a lot of people can't, or won't.
You should leave if you feel that your job is making you miserable. Start interviewing on the down low, and leave once you have something lined up.
There is no point in trying to stay at a place you hate because you are guilty about that your work is going to be piled on to your coworker. They made their choice to stay, you've done your best to help them, but you should put your own well being first and foremost.
I think this is a very American thing. Employers have a lot of leverage over employees because the employees rely on employers for healthcare insurance and there's no real safety net if they get laid off.
In other developed countries, employees will have access to universal healthcare and you have generous unemployment benefits for a much longer time (often up to 90 percent of your previous salary for a year or two or until you find another job (you have to prove your active job search)).
This all creates more balance between employer and employee.
Not in itself, no. Some people conflate "not taking shit" with being rude, stubborn and domineering, though, and that's not good in the workplace or elsewhere. For all my ranting about everything being political, I think this one is just down to worker's rights and culture - if the company is god and can never be questioned, but can fire you at a whim, most people are just not going to stick their neck out. With healthier work culture and rights, there's less shit going around in the first place, and it's easier to get out of a toxic "relationship".
Being able to walk out on the spot is a great thing. But most people will have to do some advance planning for that. Find a new job and then find a good opportunity to walk out on the spot.
In the US, the lack of statutory notice makes this particularly satisfying. In the UK (and everywhere else with statutory notice) I recommend saving up some paid holiday so you don't have to work much of your notice period. Not that you need to get much work done during it anyway.
Bad managers deserve to be left in the lurch as much as humanly possible. Make sure you plant the idea in the heads of all your co-workers.
If you're worth your words.
If you bag groceries, no one is going to give much of a shit whether you stay or go. On the upside, you probably won't care much either as most employers in 2023 are as replaceable as their employees.
Keep that in mind and you'll never get burnt, so long as you live somewhere with a varied enough employment scene for you to bounce around. If they're as replaceable as you, it's good peace of mind.
I’ve recently exposed what I think constitutes criminal negligence at my company for safe handling of various chemicals. Pretty sure I’m getting fired on Tuesday.
AMA?
Elaborate on you exposing them. Did you go to social media and some other public place to badmouth the company, or did you go to your managers so they can handle it internally to save face?
Still internal. So by exposed I mean legally they have been informed of this negligence and not acted in a timely manner to address it. I gave them a week to do what they need to do and Friday went to another employees house after work and went over the SDS for the chemical that has possible injured him because they had yet to inform him. They had their chance.
Long weekend so Tuesday a machine isn’t get turned on and by Wednesday they start losing about 2k every 4 minutes.
If you have that in writing, make sure its on paper outside of the office. Look up whistleblower laws in your city, state, or industry regulation. You may have either protection or a payout ahead of you, but only if you gather the right evidence and make the right statements to the right people now.
Yup. I have emails and such that I’m backing up. I have multiple witnesses to conversations. I’m engaging resources that I have outside of work as well in terms of legal next steps and making sure I can keep affording my medication.
Did you document everything thoroughly?
Are you contacting the authorities?
Doing what I can to document but I’m realizing that it’s a deliberately informal workplace likely to avoid this type of records keeping.
We’ll see how Tuesday goes but I don’t see them not getting involved.
If you do get fired make sure to name and shame them. What kinda chemicals were they? Nasty shit?
Pretty bad shit. Corrosive enough to blind or nerve damage within 3 minutes. Long term aerosol exposure rating of 2mg/m3.
Talk to a whistleblower attorney. Look up your jurisdiction's rules for qui tam actions. Maybe you can get some money for your troubles.
My brother is a Health and Safety trainer, auditor etc. He’s been a good resource and I’m confident of my standing but have reached out to several people I know that facilitate legal resources if needs be.
Some people definitely aren't in a position to fight back. If you're living paycheck to paycheck and barely getting by, your employer might know that you can't afford to be out of a job for any length of time. Then, they might abuse you because what are you going to do? Fight back, get fired, and then become homeless? Nope. You'll take whatever your employer dishes out on you.
Other people are in a position to fight back. I'm lucky enough to be one of those people. I watched my father waste his life doing extra work that he didn't get paid for. He'd go in early, bring stuff home to work on late into the night, and bring extra work home for the weekends. It's not like he was paid extra. He was salaried and was paid the same if he worked 40 hours or 80 hours.
In the end, he was fired when he was close to 60 - too early to retire, but too old to find a new job because he would likely retire soon. So he retired before he was ready and now lives on a very limited income.
When I got my current job, I was asked to check a generic "info@" email inbox. No problem. I routed the emails to people who could address them. My boss called me in one day to tell me that he expected me to check this inbox at night and over the weekends too.
Now, I'm Jewish and observe the Sabbath. My boss said "I can't tell you to violate your religious beliefs, but I REALLY need you to check this every few hours every day!" I told him that I wasn't going to check it on nights or weekends. He insisted I needed to because someone might email with a medical emergency. (Without getting into my employer, it was plausible that someone would email us about medical stuff in general.) I told him that if someone was having a medical emergency and, instead of dialing 911, they emailed our "info@" mailbox, they deserved to have their emergency wait until Monday morning. In all the time i monitored the inbox, I only got one email that was even slightly an emergency (and even then, it was more of a safety concern than an actual emergency).
harassed or bullied, to stand up to that behavior and tell them that you’re not going to take their shit, and if they continue you fucking quit and never look back.
In the USA, workplace harassment and bullying are generally illegal. The employer is obligated to do something about it. If they don't, then don't quit: sue.
It's really not that easy to win one of these cases. If you can even get a lawyer to take it, without paying exorbitant fees to them anyway....
You can sometimes use the NLRB to report these violations with less risk. You could also use the IWW for tips on how to get some solidarity with co-workers. Organizing a workplace can be as simple as everyone writing down what the boss or a bullying coworker says.
And then you're blacklisted by all the other business owners around town, and you're homeless by the time the case even gets to court. You can do this sort of stuff in a big city, or if you have an in-demand career. You can't do this stuff in a small to medium sized city with a ho-hum economy.
Great point
I live in an "At Will" State in the US, which means I can be fired at any time. Depending on what is going on, or how the company works (like if HR sucks), I'd rather not fight back hard.
I was stuck with an absolute horrible supervisor in my last job, and it took me 1.5 years of applying to jobs to finally get out of there. It isn't easy to just get a job.
I can't imagine not having a job for 1.5 years and paying $1500/mo for my 1 bedroom and then also other bills such as utilities + car stuff + food + etc.
I know dude. I'm fucking sorry you went through that hell
If you mean making someone you work with have a less pleasant existence then yes I would say it is a bad thing. For example the trash has to be taken out every night and you decide that you don't have to do it so now your coworkers suffer.
If you mean standing up for yourself then no but it does have consequences and you have to decide for yourself the pros and cons.
I used to be one of these people that just eat shit all day at a toxic workplace cause I thought "oh Im the new guy I have to prove my worth and work hard to get to a point of respect and earning more money" and at every job I'd do as much as I could til I'm burnt out and still being paid shot and treated like garbage. Even moreso than in the beginning because they got used to how much extra shit I'd do for them for the same pay. This happened at multiple jobs through multiple years of my life and I'd always get to a point where I'd quit or stop doing extra and get fired cause I burnt out doing everything I could with no return. After the last real job I had I quit and never looked back and I realized now that it was never my fault for not putting enough effort in or being lazy or whatever the case may be. Every time I quit it was gonna be because I would have had a mental breakdown if I stayed and my family always gave me shit cause I'd never have money saved up. It's scary AF sometimes and not everyone can get away with being in a position where you can leave a toxic workplace just like that and survive. I do think more people should be able to at least stand up to their employers and get what they deserve though. If they can't quit that's the next best thing. Or better yet get together with fellow employees and start a union. I'm freelance now since that last job and I have been in a couple terrible work droughts but I have been trying as hard as I possibly can to make it work and never have to work for someone ever again.
I've been there too brother. Stay strong man. You've come along way
Fortunately, here in Germany we have very strong employee laws and regulations. Employers can do much less shit to employees than in the USA for example.
Boss yells at you? Sue them. Boss fires you for no real reason? Sue them. Boss verbally attacks you? Sue them. Boss does not pay you on time? Sue them. Boss makes you do useless nonsense work? Sue them. Boss demands you to do overtime without compensation? Sue them.
You'll always win AND you will keep your job and get compensation.
Does this mean being able to deal with hard time and coarse personalities, or being treated truly terribly?
I don't "take shit" from an employer by interviewing for a new job.
If they are rude to me I smile, nod, complete the task, and then go open LinkedIn and start talking to recruiters.
Obedience? Yea, nah..
No one wants to work with the edgy dick.
The reason "professional behavior" exists as a concept is so people aren't awful to be around while you work with them.
You are copying the behavior you claim to dislike.
Learning the difference between professionalism and "obedience" will be big growth in your maturity.
There can be a strategic long term play when it is valuable for you to "take shit" from an employer.
A perfect example is if you are trying to move up in a career, and your industry requires experience and a specific level of title before you'd be considered by employers you'd prefer to work for. If you don't have that experience and title, you simple won't even be considered by the employers you like. However, if there is a shitty employer that will give you the job and title (because they can't keep staff because they're shitty and have high turnover), then it may be worth it to "take shit" from the shitty employer for a year or so to gain the experience and ability to put that position on your resume to make yourself eligible for the good employers you like. Another good reason to work for one of these "taking shit" employers when you're moving up is you can make your mistakes here. Make your mistakes in your new position at a place you hate, so when you go to the place that treats you well, you perform much better because of your knowledge and experience.
Also, I've worked for some shitty employers because they pay significantly more than good employers (again because they have to because otherwise they can't keep staff). This should only be used as a short term play because that toxicity can damage you long term. You don't want to be a lifer at one of these places, but if you have a goal that requires more money, then working for one of these and "taking shit" from them may be worth it to achieve your personal long term goals.
If you're career driven, "taking shit" strategically can be valuable. Your co-workers who refuse to "take any shit" will likely continue to have their jobs, but they'll see themselves passed over for promotions and raises. They'll watch as you continue to rise in the organization, and see when you've learned what you needed and jumped ship to another employer that treats them well where they don't have to "take shit". They'll chalk up their lack of advancement to being unfairly passed over, while you are two to three promotions above them, making more money, having better/more interesting work, and "taking less shit" than them.
I get what you are saying. But I don't kiss ass
There's a difference between "taking shit" and "kissing ass". You're welcome to believe them the same, but understand that the consequences impact your employ-ability. There's a whole set of skills about managing workplace boundaries. Its not a binary of "taking shit" all-or-nothing. Its picking your battles and choosing to refuse to do things that would harm you physically or mentally, or those things that are simply annoying or hits to your pride. If you have to maintain your "not taking shit" image because of ego, I can tell you that will likely be very costly to you.
I can tell you from far up the chain (just because I'm older and have been doing this longer) there are zero jobs where you can avoid "taking shit". It comes in different forms. Right now you're talking about your direct manager or supervisor it sounds like. The higher up you go it comes from even higher bosses, government agencies, vendors you're forced to deal with, regulatory auditors, insurance companies, then, paradoxically, employees you manage.
There is no "taking shit"-free job. That only comes when you exit the workforce...which is one of my goals I'm working is to speedrun to earn enough money to do that before age 65 or 67 assuming you've saved appropriate to allow you to do that.
There's a reason the term "wage slave" exists.
As long as people need to work for someone else in order to eat, this sort of exploitative power inbalance will exist.
Doesn't that point to the need of better labor laws, where workers have more protection? I feel like that's the only reason more people don't stand up to shitty employers/bosses, and why it's even a question in the US.
Yes that is a worthwhile goal.
Doesn't change the current situation, though.
And, the cynic in me doesn't see that goal being achieved in my lifetime, no matter how hard I might be able to push for it.
Very excellent point
It depends. You have to make a benefit-risk-downside analysis, such as whether the job pays well, what your other prospects are pay-wise, if another job might have a better or worse working environment in terms of supervisors and colleagues, how convenient the job is (work from home? commute across town?) and how switching jobs will look on your resume, as in, have you been there only 6 months? 3 years? 6 years?
Can be, depending on how you actually act. A lot of people "who take no shit" are just assholes looking for reasons to be assholes.
'Take no shit ' as in being taken advantage of in your position. Increased work loads with the expectation to be complete within the day when it's clearly a 3 person project.
You are micromanaged, belittled and humiliated in front of your co workers and customers on a daily basis and spoken down to as if you suffer from a cognitive syndrome.
= treated like shit
I don't see how not taking that behavior and standing up for yourself is being an asshole. You don't let people walk all over you like that.
Yes. Not being able to put up with shit is more so an act of immaturity even if it's straight up unfair and justified. It's the nature of life, and your sense of self respect is just another word for fragile ego. You need to be able to take really hard ego hits, and it's not going to be fair. You're never going to climb a job ladder otherwise and will end up constantly quitting jobs because your feelings get hurt. This is different from a toxic workplace where they also restrain your growth, then you should gtfo because that's the point of you being there. If you don't put up shit, there's tons of people in line who will take your spot that will. That's the nature of life, and no matter what position you are in you'll always have to deal with it.
This is an appalling take. No, you should not allow an employer to treat you with disrespect. Normalising an abusive, exploitative model of employment where you have no choice but to "put up with shit" makes conditions worse for everyone.
I think there’s a middle ground here. You should be able to put up with shit occasionally. Sometimes tensions will be high for one reason or another and things might get snippy, no reason to quit over that. But if you’re having to do it every day because your boss is just an asshole, then yeah you should be looking for a new job.
Exactly.