With the Voice to Parliament Referendum date announced to be October 14 2023, this thread will run in the lead up to the date for general discussions/queries regarding the Voice to Parliament.
The Proposed Constitutional Amendment
Chapter IX Recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples
129 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice
In recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples of Australia:
there shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice;
the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to the Parliament and the Executive Government of the Commonwealth on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples;
the Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, including its composition, functions, powers and procedures.
Past Discussions
Here are some previous posts in this community regarding the referendum:
voice.gov.au - General information about the Voice
Amendments to this post
If you would like to see some other articles or posts linked here please let me know and I'll try to add it as soon as possible.
Added the proposed constitutional amendment (31/08/2023)
Added Common Misinformation section (01/07/2023)
Discussion / Rules
Please follow the rules in the sidebar and for aussie.zone in general. Anything deemed to be misinformation or with malicious intent will be removed at moderators' discretion. This is a safe space to discuss your opinion on the voice or ask general questions.
Please continue posting news articles as separate posts but consider adding a link to this post to encourage discussion.
I find it so frustrating when I hear NO campaigners say a constitutive is not required. Politicians should just do their job and it’s easy to consult ATSI people, no voice required.
They literally did that. Consulted ATSI people, as part of a plan to change things, with all major parties on board. They are showing how much they don’t listen by saying that they don’t need the voice to listen? Aaaghhh.
No voters are low-key racists, I 100% believe this- they hide behind some weak arguments to pretend they're progressive, but deep down they are just bigoted at heart. at worst this Yes vote does nothing, at best it changes for the people the well-being and future of indigenous australians. This whole throwing water on the fire instead of using a fire truck is just obfuscation, and they'd also find a reason to vote No for the fire truck as well.
I really don't know anything about the, nor the issues faced by indigenous Australians, nor the best way to address them. This just isn't relevant to my day to day.
That said, if I made a list of people who's opinions I respect and polled them I'm sure it would be overwhelmingly "yes".
I have family diving into this and I listen here and there. A concern one has mentioned is the aggressive stance by Lidia Thorpe. Without a doubt she will want full sovereignty over any other race.
In a June 2022 interview, Thorpe said she was there to 'infiltrate' the Australian parliament and that the Australian flag had "no permission to be here".
So yes, the voice can be used in good ways I'm sure, but, depending on your stance, Lidia will be trying to use it for her own means as well.
And having said that, maybe eventually these times will pass, Lidia's will take over, and maybe that's good? It was and probably should be the aboriginal people's country to fully control in the end.
But Lidia's against the Voice, so not sure how that line of thought plays out.
The fact is, the Voice won't have the power to create legislation or veto Parliament, or even anything close to that. It's job will be to advise on indigenous affars. Yes, we've had bodies before that were meant to do that (notably ATSIC). But they weren't protected by the Constitution, so were easily dismantled by the government of the day.
I am enormously sick of the no campaign brigading every discussion with terrible arguments in bad faith.
I have yet to encounter a legal expert, or for that matter, an Indigenous Australian who is accepted by their community, who is opposed. Similarly, the law is my degree. I've spent five years of my life studying it, and although I'm not a graduate yet (two units to go), I'd think I'd know more about this shit than Joe from bumfuck nowhere on Facebook.
There is no case for a no vote. None whatsoever. The change would not grant special rights to Indigenous Australians. It has been repeatedly explained by both lawyers and politicians. You can read the change yourself. It has to be a constitutional change, because that protects it from being outright removed by successive governments, which is the very thing that happened to the previous body that performed this role. By definition, it is not racist, as racism refers to negative treatment on the basis of race or ethnic background, and not differing treatment. This is one of three steps proposed by Indigenous Australians towards reconciliation, and isn't the endpoint. If it fails, it will be the endpoint.
When the colonisers arrived, Indigenous Australians outnumbered colonisers. Now, they make up just 2.5% of the population. We are driving them to extinction. If this fails, by the time we get around to trying again, it is likely the genocide will have all but been completed.
Ethically and morally, a yes vote is the only choice. Legally, it is the best choice for change.
Just to point out, racism does not have to be negative treatment. Racism just has to be inequitable. The proposed amendment creates a system for Indigenous Australians, which is unavailable to other Australians. That is inequitable.
The changes needed can be achieved without a Constitutional amendment.
The changes needed can be achieved without a Constitutional amendment.
and removed next term when the next quasi fascist gets elected.
frankly im a little sick of the 'no' side claiming the Voice will both do nothing, but simultaneously cause some sort of irrepairable divide that will destroy the nation.
And every. single. cooker. is loudly vocally on the No side. Which makes it an easy choice for me
Not what equity means. Equity refers to equal access to the same opportunities. Put simply, due to their post-genocide, White Australia Policy and "Breeding out the Black" (real campaign) numbers, Indigenous Australians completely lack representation in Parliament. Therefore they lack access to the opportunities your average Australian (regardless of race) has. An Indigenous Voice to Parliament will make things more equitable, not less, as it will provide access to the same opportunities of representation that the rest of us have already.
Perhaps you should look up just how many existing governmental advisory bodies there are that have zero relation to the indigenous population. Maybe we should go and revoke them, you know, for equality
We spend billions each year, but studies show the gap between other Australians and indigenous is worsening. We should be trying something. Anything.
For those concerned about 'the details', my understanding is that the pollies are responsible for those after the referendum. Do you really think a parliament and senate made up of mainly old white guys are going to significantly change how the country works? Seriously?
So, we've got nothing to lose, and hell, wouldn't it be awesome if it actually had some positive changes!
Why has every piece of "information" about the No vote always boil down to "we don't know". But the yes voters have a bunch of answers to every question.
At this point I've just come to the conclusion the no people are most likely racists in hiding. The whole special rights/excessive powers/etc is just a cover story imo
The worst case scenario for them is that marginalised groups might start getting a greater say over the policies and laws that affect them. If Indigenous Australians are awarded more power in a system that is designed to keep them powerless then who knows what other groups in a similar situation of powerlessness might start getting uppity about.
The conservative no campaign don't want to change the status quo because they don't have a problem with it. Shit's working fine in their view. The yes campaign and progressive no campaign agree that the status quo is not good enough but disagree about how it needs to be changed.
If you read the conservative no campaign's brochure one of the concerns that they have about the voice is that it opens the door to activism. I personally think that is the foundation of their position and everything else is just incoherent fluff to wrap it up in.
Probably the worst case for No voters is that the Voice becomes a platform to push for reparations, whereby Australians are expected to pay a tax for events that occurred before they were born or arrived in the country.
This is the first referendum voting experience for me so I'm excited to be part of history even if the outcome is not the one I want. I'm personally in the critical yes camp where I hope the referendum is successful but still agree with the points raised by the progressive no campaign. I was unsure for a while because I'm not an Indigenous person and wanted to listen to as many different Indigenous perspectives as I could before deciding. What really pushed me to yes was the idea that while not every person who votes no is racist, all racists will vote no.
I have serious issues with the idea of progressive no - it's bad faith at worst, purity politics at best. "Nonono don't throw that bucket of water on the fire i want a fire truck" the former doesn't preclude the latter ffs.
Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint and it's not my place to say what is or isn't a good approach to change in this space. The progressive no campaign is connected to the Indigenous sovereignty movement and I can understand why they have taken the position they have. I'm not an Indigenous person so I don't feel like it's appropriate for me to try and represent their ideas. But I don't think it's fair to close yourself off to them, especially when the principle of the voice should is about listening to the diversity of Indigenous perspectives.
I think my very first voting experience was the republic referendum. I really didn't know what I was doing or how to research. But all these years later, I stand by my vote.
I am voting Yes for The Voice because team Yes have put up an good case for it. Team No have yet to convince me otherwise; Everything I read is either vague speculation or miss information.
I wish I got to vote in the Republic referendum. What was the rhetoric like in comparison to the current one? Did anyone make a fuss about the ticks and crosses thing?
I honestly don't know how I'm going to vote. Something is needed, but is it this?
I agree with a concern from the 'no' camp, that this ends up being a bandaid or virtue-signalling; and if it passes then "job well done" and we don't keep moving forward.
Otoh, I very much fear that if the result is 'no', we have collectively just affirmed racism - the overt, the systemic, and the subtextual.
I have family planning to vote both ways, and they have put considered thought into their positions, not just gut reactions.
But I don't know, for me. I don't think I can in good conscience vote 'no', but I have not yet convinced myself that I can vote 'yes'.
Your concerns are valid. I don't think it's a wild position to expect action from The Voice as a measure of success, and not virtue signalling. Race politics in this country is ugly. If the Yes camp wins, they will celebrate in a way that the No camp will label virtue signalling. And if the No camp wins, they will decry victory over political correctness. Respectful debate is unlikely irrespective of the outcome.
All that said — The Voice will be independent of the Government of the day. If the Government fails to act, The Voice will speak directly to the Government, the media and the community, announcing failure. I believe this will create a powerful political incentive to listen and act on the recommendations of The Voice in a unique way that our system currently does not have.
All political parties have issues with racism to various degrees — Liberals, Greens, Labor, all of 'em. The Voice will hold them accountable for their respective failures. Given that politicians loath transparency, it's a fundamentally good idea to have an indigenous body to hold politicians to direct account.
A recent example of how this may play out is in Queensland, where Labor is potentially liable for tens of millions of dollars, for inhumane child detention in so-called 'watch' houses. The Guardian has an excellent article on this issue. If Australia had an advisory body like The Voice, the sheer amount of attention that would be given on this issue would unquestionably force Labor to prioritise rectifying this issue. Currently, this issue is being played out in the courts, which is an important component of justice, but I'd argue that an expedited solution would occur if The Voice existed.
Pardon the long post. If you want any recommendations for balanced and fair podcasts, articles or resources, please let me know. Happy to help. And all the best otherwise x
I think it’s as simple as “progress over perfection”.
In and of itself, will this amendment do harm? If your answer is “No”, that’s all that matters.
It may not be the Silver Bullet, there likely is no silver bullet - but if this is one step closer to the life we all want to look back on, then we should try it. Arguments that this isn’t enough are complete sophistry. One step is better than no steps.
The argument that “we might not take step four, therefore we shouldn’t take step one” is completely disingenuous. Of course we should take step one, because it’s better than where we are today. Tomorrow we will work on step two - together.
It is what the majority of Indigenous Australians surveyed, as well as the overwhelming majority of people involved in the process, have indicated they want. The Progressive No campaign has some valid criticisms but ultimately I don't feel it is my responsibility as a non-Indigenous person to vote No on behalf of a minority. The way I see it, that side lost their internal battle years ago and we are now at a stage where the best way to show respect is to vote Yes.
We, gathered at the 2017 National Constitutional Convention, coming from all points of the
southern sky, make this statement from the heart:
Our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander tribes were the first sovereign Nations of the
Australian continent and its adjacent islands, and possessed it under our own laws and customs.
This our ancestors did, according to the reckoning of our culture, from the Creation, according
to the common law from ‘time immemorial’, and according to science more than 60,000 years
ago.
This sovereignty is a spiritual notion: the ancestral tie between the land, or ‘mother nature’,
and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples who were born therefrom, remain
attached thereto, and must one day return thither to be united with our ancestors. This link is
the basis of the ownership of the soil, or better, of sovereignty. It has never been ceded or
extinguished, and co-exists with the sovereignty of the Crown.
How could it be otherwise? That peoples possessed a land for sixty millennia and this sacred
link disappears from world history in merely the last two hundred years?
With substantive constitutional change and structural reform, we believe this ancient
sovereignty can shine through as a fuller expression of Australia’s nationhood.
Proportionally, we are the most incarcerated people on the planet. We are not an innately
criminal people. Our children are aliened from their families at unprecedented rates. This
cannot be because we have no love for them. And our youth languish in detention in obscene
numbers. They should be our hope for the future.
These dimensions of our crisis tell plainly the structural nature of our problem. This is the
torment of our powerlessness.
We seek constitutional reforms to empower our people and take a rightful place in our own
country. When we have power over our destiny our children will flourish. They will walk in
two worlds and their culture will be a gift to their country.
We call for the establishment of a First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution.
Makarrata is the culmination of our agenda: the coming together after a struggle. It captures
our aspirations for a fair and truthful relationship with the people of Australia and a better
future for our children based on justice and self-determination.
We seek a Makarrata Commission to supervise a process of agreement-making between
governments and First Nations and truth-telling about our history.
In 1967 we were counted, in 2017 we seek to be heard. We leave base camp and start our trek
across this vast country. We invite you to walk with us in a movement of the Australian people
for a better future.
Don't forget neo nazis who are actively supporting the no campaign. Dutton and co can try to lie and convince people that they care about making things better for Indigenous Australians all they want but there's absolutely no fucking reality where nazis give a shit about this. Not all people who vote no are racists, but all racists will vote no.
Less than the active racism on the news, there's a hell of a lot of people who think righting wrongs isn't worth the small sum of cash and time that a voice will take up in the public sphere. People who think because we've been forced into a minority that we should lay down and accept being trodden on.
For what it's worth, a lot of my neighbours have a vote yes sign on their doors. It makes me feel like we'll get the yes to change the constitution. That'd be awesome. I'm hanging onto hope.
FWIW I'll be voting Yes, but I doubt it will do much good.
Referendums never succeed in this country, unless they have bipartisan support. So what was the point of this exercise? What's Albanese's angle in all of this?
Something I have not seen discussed anywhere.
They do not specify that this group will be elected. That mean they will be appointed. I just can't see future for this other than a punch of politicians mates from the inner city. Completely out of touch with the needs of those they represent.
I'm still leaning towards voting yes but I don't see this actually helping. It's probably just going to cost the tax payers a bunch of money and do no good.
If they were elected then they could be held to account.
A reminder, the PM is basically appointed. We don't get to vote on the PM, just the party, and they pick who is going to lead us.
As for a "bunch of money" - it's almost nothing.
If conservative voters actually cared about money, they wouldn't waste money on American nuclear subs we can't refuel, or broken French contracts, or spending more triple on a subpar telecommunications network that Labor is having to spend more on to fix.
No, it's not about money, and it isn't about elections.
I am one of the biggest critics of the Libs but I don't think the whole AUKUS debacle can be 100% blamed on them.
The whole thing screams the US forcing Australia to buy the subs to ensure long term control.
If the government doesn't do what they are told then the US can refuse to maintain the subs.
Remember the last prime minister who looked out for Australia's best interests rather than the US's interests got kicked out of government and an unelected lib Prime minister replaced him.
The idea that the voice is some sort of useless idea is seriously flawed. Policy institutes and Parliamentary hearing and committee are the biggest drivers of policy in this country. Media attention and petitions aren't nearly as effective in this regard. The voice will likely not be integrated as a Parliamentary comittee is, due to its being a separate body, but will still offer valuable representation to Parliament to those who came before these institutions and this country. Aboriginals had their own traditions, nations and sovereignty on land that was not ceded. We have accepted their legal and unique history with this land, this is merely saying that within the framework of Australia as a country, that Aboriginals deserve access to our legislature and executive on matters that affect them.
The popular argument by resident no voter @[email protected] seems to be that this is virtue signalling and that this would be the end of social justice for Aboriginals, that resistance would develop in trying to advance a cause further. They seem to suggest that we would be better off doing something of substance, as to not foment resistance and resentment. I would hope that on the first point, its been made clear that there is real benefit to having a Voice, and the second is irrelevant, the Australian population will tire after a no vote, and after a yes vote. Its the jobs of those politically active, the media, the Voice itself, politicians, and those non apathetic people to push for more when the time comes.
A second argument I hear, and the most factually true argument I hear is lack of detail. It is true that there is a lack of official detail from those legislators who will be advancing bills if the referendum finishes in the affirmative. It is also understandable to want to know in substance what the fruits of your vote would be. Id encourage those who would like to learn to listen to ideas from the referendum working group and those associated with the yes campaign on rough ideas of a Voice if this is the case. Its important to remember that we are voting on the amendment though, not the bill itself. There are significant measures that must go into establishing the voice in substance:
Will the voice exist entirely under its own weight, legislated by Parliament and run by itself, or will the bureaucratic arm of the voice exist in the Australian Public Service
How will the voice be elected? How will regional voices be represented? Is a federal model (each nation receives x representatives), a state based model (each state receives x amount of reps) or a unitary, population based model more effective?
All of these questions take significant time. If you can focus on the amendment, and whether support those ideas outside of what a future voice may look like, it will help.
Senator Patrick Dodson was interviewed about The Voice recently. Some of the more interesting topics covered were what a Yes/No vote would mean for Australia on a national and international level, Indigenous Australians and Dodson himself as a long-term activist currently battling cancer and whether the Voice should be legislated in the event of a No vote. It's a good listen.
Saw someone on Facebook saying to take permanent markers so they can't change your "No" vote to a "Yes". If the referendum succeeds, what's the bet they're going to claim it was stolen?
Counting has started, ABC has a live results page here. As of the time I'm writing this there is only 0.3% of the total counted but it's rising quickly.
Hey, just a little nudge, if you’re keen to chat about the Voice to Parliament, we’ve got this corker of a megathread where we can all have a good chinwag in one spot. But if you’re not up for that, no worries, it’s business as usual. Gotta keep things fair dinkum!
I know it isn't a popular view around here, but for the sake of a diversity of opinion, here is why I will be voting no.
I am of the view that all Australians should be treated equally in the eye of the law, regardless of the colour of their skin or who their grandparents are. I think the law should be race-blind.
I think it is a step in the wrong direction for Australia to have laws that separate Australians along racist lines. I think it's a step in the wrong direction to enshrine in the constitution that people of one ethnic heritage get special representation that people of different ethnic heritage do not.
I don't care who your dad was, or who his dad was, or who his dad was. Just because someone's dad's dad's dad was in Australia before someone else's shouldn't entitle them to more representation to parliament than anyone else. You shouldn't get special privilege just because you were born into a particular family lineage.
I think Australia needs to do more to help those who need help. Nobody should die in police custody. Everybody should have access to education. Anyone who is born into poverty should be lifted out of it. And any time the government is going to make laws, they should obviously consult with the people who those laws will affect.
I vote for politicians who support policies that I believe will make all Australians better off, and actively campaign to change the status quo in ways that I think are better. I also actively campaign against changing the status quo in ways that I think are worse. This is one of those ways.
It's not a very popular opinion because it can be rejected objectively:
Aboriginal and Torres strait Islander people aren't a race but a cultural group that has existed for over 60000 years
The voice doesn't give these groups representation in parliament but would exist as an advisory body which may make representations to parliament, just as all Australians already can
It also doesn't specify that it must be composed of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people
On the more "subjective" front:
This isn't just any cultural group, this is the first group that was unlawfully kicked off of their land by British settlers
As non-indigenous Australians it's not our fault, but since we benefit from it - it's our responsibility. Many Indigenous people are unhappy as they don't get to continue their culture due to the aforementioned invasion.
There isn't a solution where everyone wins, Indigenous people shouldn't have to give up their culture and integrate into ours and Non-indigenous people shouldn't have to pack up and move somewhere else
The Voice is a step to help solve this divide (remember further steps won't be able to happen without further democratic processes) no one really gets what they want and it's up to us to decide where we stand on this
Whether you call it race or cultural group, the argument doesn't change. I think all Australians should be treated equally by the law, and any Australian who is disadvantaged should receive help, regardless of whether they're part of one culture or another. Enshrining in the constitution that one cultural group gets extra representation to parliament that other cultural groups do not get is, in my view, a step away from the Australia that I want to live in.
It's well and good if this is your opinion, but note that Aboriginals weren't only here before, but they had their own nations, systems of government and sovereignty that was stripped from them in the 1700s. This isn't just about race, but about their native history with the land and unique connection. If you still believe that Aboriginals don't deserve any sort of representation that recognises this fact, along with all the disadvantage that specifically affects Aboriginals due to government policies since then, then sure.
I'd also like to note that committees and policy institutes already hear from special interest groups, it's not division to hear from those who are uniquely affected by laws.
I believe that all Australians should have representation to parliament. I don't believe that anybody should have a 'birthright' to more representation just because of the family lineage they were born into.
I believe that any time the government is going to introduce or change laws, they should consult with the people those laws will affect. Regardless of the race or culture of those people.
I think understanding the difference between equality and equity would help in understanding some of the points Indigenous advocates have been making throughout this campaign. Equity is about rights and needs according to what different groups experience in terms of disadvantage. Essesntially, equality looks different for different groups of people. Equality is a great value to have and strive for, but because of our colonial history Indigenous Australians do not have equality. In whatever way you measure it there is a significant gap in inequality between Indigenous and non- Indigenous Australians. Indigenous Australians also have different needs (culturally appropriate services, inclusive education systems etc) and rights (land rights, cultural rights etc). The best people to advise on how to close the gap is Indigenous Australians themselves. That's what the voice is about.
I believe that anybody who is disadvantaged should be helped, and anybody who needs healthcare or education or assistance should receive it, and I believe that anytime the government is going to introduce or change laws, they should consult with the people those laws will affect. Regardless of whether those people are of aboriginal heritage or not. I don't believe our laws should make special exceptions or treat people differently because of their race or culture or who their ancestors are.
And that is exactly why you should vote yes. To help ensure that everything you've said happens.
Look, here is an example: women and Africans have different responses to various medicines and pain killers and such. Generally, historically, they get subpar care compared to white men. Not intentionally! It's just decades and centuries of data is from white male subjects.
It's not exactly apples to apples here - but the basis the same. There are differences and inequities which an advisory board would be useful for, for achieving the goal of equality.
And really, that could also be your biggest misunderstanding of the world here (sorry for sounding confrontational, but hear me out): equality vs equity.
If the law is truly equal, then it is inequitable and unfair. This is because WE are unequal.
For example, if a speeding fine is $500 for everyone, regardless of the speed or the person, then it is equal. However, a rich person can speed as much as they want, and it's just part of the cost of driving for them. A poor person would have to sell their car to pay their debts. That's not equal punishment. Some countries take income into consideration when assigning speeding tickets as a way to balance the law.
The point is to highlight: equal is not always fair. Equal is not always equitable.
women and Africans have different responses to various medicines and pain killers and such
So listen to scientific and medical advisors who are the people best suited to identify these concerns and propose solutions.
The point is to highlight: equal is not always fair. Equal is not always equitable.
The solution isn't to make the law that Aboriginals pay lower speeding fines or that white folk pay higher speeding fines though, is it? The solution is to make fines scale with the offender's wealth, not their race.
If somebody needs help, I don't believe we should take their race into consideration. We should just help them, regardless of their race.
If the government is going to make a policy or change the law, I don't believe that somebody's race should decide whether or not the government consults with them first. The government should consult with them regardless of their race.
I think your misunderstanding of the world is that you think racism is a good idea. I personally don't agree with you.
This might be a bit petty, but the fact your instance has a .uk TLD alongside your opinion is, well, kinda yikes. I think a voice to parliament is one of the least drastic changes we could make to recognise the harm that was caused by someone’s dad’s dad’s dad.
I don't want to just 'recognise' harm that was done. I want to make Australia a better place for everyone living in it, and help anyone who is born into disadvantage, regardless of their family lineage. I do not believe that the voice does that.
Regardless of how this all rolls, actual treaty with the individual indigenous nations will be beginning soon. Just watch.
I've been lucky enough to have family involved deeply in this, and the voice, whilst positive, is a bit of a sideshow to the treaties.
There are a lot of nations to treaty with (not one first nation, but many first nations), so it will take time. But, it's all about to kick off.
The crown did not win by spoils of war, nor did it take over via treaty.
Watch the news. The upcoming wind of change is all based on Australian having no actual, legal rights to claim the continent. No treaty. No spoils of war.
The key word to watch is apartheid. The media will probably start using it soon. Not the Murdoch press, of course.