EU OS: A Fedora-based distro 'for the public sector'
EU OS: A Fedora-based distro 'for the public sector'
It's only a proof of concept at the moment and I don't know if it will see mass adoption but it's a step in the right direction to ending reliance on US-based Big Tech.
But Fedora is based on an IBM product... so that's a swing and a miss. SuSE would be a better direction, IMO
Only after IBM purchased Redhat recently
In my opinion, If sovereignty is the goal i think GTK based DE will be safer than QT based DE.
I am aware of The Free QT foundation And its relation to KDE but in a long term there is possibility of things might get complicated if there is change in policy . And even the QT trademark is not totally free. I'm not trying to start DE war, i love both KDE and GNOME.
The Qt foundation tried to get fucky once already, and KDE and some other major companies that rely on it were about ready to fork it if they persisted, and Qt seemed to calm down after that.
Not a great relationship to be in though, constantly suspecting that your toolkit might do a rugpull at some point if the shareholders demand it. But I think they could pull off a fork if they ever did.
Why Fedora? Sorry, but there are so many European options, it makes no sense to build a European house on an American basement.
Probably since it's the main redhat upstream and they want the advantage of already widespread usage.
Although at that point why not OpenSUSE for the same reason you mentioned.
Suse is the first thing that came to mind
It's still open source
if you're not paying it doesn't really matter. open source belongs to everyone; it's a disservice to put it in the same bag as, say, a Microsoft or Apple OS.
plus how far removed is enough? are we going to scrutinize what programming languages were used and where they originated as well?
Yeah, no.
The idea of a "distro for EU public sector" is neat, but even the PoC has some flaws when considering technical sovereignty.
First of all, using Gitlab & Gitlab CI. Gitlab is an American company with most of its developers based in the US. Sure, you could host it by yourself but why would you do it considering Forgejo is lighter and mostly developed by developers based in the EU area?
The idea of basing it on Fedora is also somewhat confusing. Sure, it's a good distro for derivatives, but it's mostly developed by IBM developers. The tech sovereignty argument doesn't hold well against Murphy's law.
For me, it's a perfectly fitting compromise, because Fedora is a community that is detached from RedHat and IBM, but it is also the best distribution out there.
They are pushing the envelope and have been for some time. If it weren't for Fedora devs we wouldn't have seen Wayland, PipeWire, Nouveau, etc be pushed to the general public. Also Fedora a libre distribution built by community. If that were ever to change they'd hemorrhage devs.
Compare that with Ubuntu. They want a vendor lock-in via Snaps (and in one point in time Mir), they're currently replacing coreutils (copyleft) with uutils (copyright) and have what I would say is a pretty bad and convoluted GPU stack.
OpenSuSE could probably be a better alternative, if they took the Linux desktop seriously. But they play second fiddle to Fedora and have not even been close enough to push the envelope like Fedora has.
In conclusion Fedora is the best libre Linux distributions out there.
Now if Eelco Doolstra wasn't fucking around, we could have had a super LTS NixOS - but NOOOO.
Love this! We definitely should try to spread Linux to become more accessible and popular.
I read EUDORA for a split second and got all excited that the best email client ever was getting reborn!
But this is cool too… i guess.
As much as I love what they're doing, tieing an OS to a specific region via name seems like the opposite of Open Source values.. Then again, I suppose it could just be forked into a more generalized version
Meanwhile https://www.europarl.europa.eu/petitions/en/petition/content/0729%252F2024/html/Linux%2Bstatt%2BWindows just closed with 2474 Supporters
Well, first I hear of it.
I'd rather they used SUSE
I just looked into how easy it would be to install nvidia drivers on openSUSE and it's not as great as Fedora for comparison, that's one of the only 2 down sides I've found so far. The other downside is a personal preference one, for many it's an upside, and it would be an upside for anyone basing an entire distro on it, and that's how there's nothing fancy installed alongside openSUSE, it's not bloated. No starship prompt in the terminal, no proprietary codecs etc. I like how openSUSE defaults to a lot of BTRFS subvolumes for almost each important root directory and comes preinstalled with snapper, that's very neat. And it's so nice to use YaST, what a treat. While Fedora does also have patterns, getting to use a graphical installer with YaST is so nice.
I'm glazing a lot for someone that doesn't daily run it, so maybe I should just switch one of these days, haha. Maybe when my Nobara installation dies.My daily driver is an nvidia laptop with opensuse, takes like one afternoon to get everything ready with barely any former Linux experience.
Just use zypper (or yast) to add the proprietary nvidia repository (or nouveau) and install your drivers. Install everything else you need through zypper (or yast or flatpak). Familiarise yourself with keybinds, set new keybinds (not needed of course but its nice to know keybinds - if you're using KDE already they'll probably be the same anyway). Select KDE's dark "breeze for OpenSUSE" theme (or some other theme, but breeze for opensuse just is so polished). Configure other preferences (night light from sundown to sunrise, set up Firefox sync (if you use that), connect to onedrive or whichever cloud you're using, ... . Done. No need to wait :)
Yeah I have used opensuse for the past couple years (still do!) but while there is plenty to like, if I were to do a reinstall I would likely move back to Fedora.
Then again, I basically never use YaST, which I suppose is one of the main song points.
But is it Enterprise Grade and Web Scale? RedHat has a lot of marketing legacy behind it.
Edit: I realize I probably should have specified the /s I’m making fun of RedHat marketing.
SUSE Linux Enterprise exists since 2000.
If the EU were concerned about the US jurisdiction of Linux projects it could pick:
- OpenSuSE (org based in Germany)
- Mint (org based in Ireland)
- Manjaro (org based in France/Germany, and based of Arch)
- Ubuntu (org based in UK)
However if they didn't care, then they could just use Fedora or other US based distros.
I think it would be a good idea for the EU to adopt linux officially, and maybe even have it's own distro, but I'm not sure this Fedora base makes sense. Ironically this may also be breaching EU trademarks as it's masquerading as an official project by calling itself EU OS.
Mint and Ubuntu have Debian as an upstream, don't they?
Debian is a US legal entity, so if it was required to sanction countries, it feels that software built with it would likely be restricted.
I'd add:
- Mageia (French)
- Zorin OS (Ireland)
- Ufficio Zero (Italy)
Last option but better for an easy migration: linuxfx.org
I would like the EU to make an official universal Linux distro, intended for the ordinary person to use on their PC. Bonus points if they can collaborate with Steam to make it compatible with gaming stuff. The big reason I stuck to Windows 11 is for the sake of games, but if compatibility and ease of use to customize was improved, I would be happy to switch away.
The big thing that the EU can bring to the project is contributing lots of money for making Linux suitable as a daily driver, along with mandating its usage on government machines.
i’d say if it happens it should start with focusing on:
- government and workstation (this is important first to have control and independence over so that government isn’t beholden to the whims of foreign companies)
- then server (maybe - idk really if that’s worth it though; it’s a whole can of compatibility worms and adoption expense)
- then user desktop
though there is the argument that workstation and user desktop are close enough to each other that user desktop should be above server, but i’d imagine it’d be more of a “home user” than gamer situation. i could imagine some regulations around refurbishing old tech with this kind of OS too, and this would be more about low spec machines (that’d help workstations too)
Why not use the existing Distros?
Most distros, not all, are based in, or run by, American legal entities.
Redhat, Rocky, Alma, Debian, etc - all legally American. This is a problem if the US requires sanctions against another country. All of those cannot legally supply products to Russia now, but in the future who's to say what other countries the US will sanction? People are only now starting to realise that sanctions can be applied to software too, and many countries are entirely reliant upon US Software. (Seriously, do a quick audit - 90% of our tech company's stack is US originated)
Alternatives: Suse (German) Ubuntu (UK, but based on Debian, so likely subject to supply chain restrictions).
Why Fedora? They're basically Red Hat in a trench coat. I'd go with a EU based distro like Suse.
I was wondering the same when I came across it a few hours ago and decided to look into it, apparently it’s because it was decided to use an atomic distribution as a base and Suses is apparently not considered stable enough by them. (I can not argue the validity of these statements given either way, that’s just what I found in one of their gitlab issues . if someone wants to look at it for themselves, searching for Fedora on the issue tracker should bring it up)
Having seen SuSE destroy collaborators like OL, CNC and probably Turbo, I'm okay never even working with them as a customer. I intend to avoid them until death.
SuSE destroy collaborators like OL, CNC and probably Turbo
I'm very new with this and have no idea what OL, CNC and Turbo are. Could you please elaborate?
Well, companies like Valve, they are a bit more worried if the distro are community or organization driven. So, for government, perhaps that same philosophy should be considered which is not the case of Fedora or Suse. They check distros such as Arch or Debian and derivatives.
Well, I don't know about Valve being worried about community distro.
Did something change?
Fedora Origin: USA
No, thanks. 🙅
alternative POV: it’s entirely FOSS so there’s little control that can be exerted from its use. it’s also entirely free, so use is extracting value without providing anything in return. by its use, you’re taking resources to maintain, host, etc and providing nothing in return
similar reason to why i don’t use ecosia with an ad blocker: by blocking ads you’re using their resources without giving back and thus you’re taking resources away from the charity
I think the point is, you just don't support products from countries led by dictators. I wouldn't use an OS from North Korea, no matter how free it was. LOL
In my case, the US is worse than North Korea, because they threaten the existence of my country (Canada) on a daily basis.
And for the EU, they have as much reason to distance themselves from Americans than I do.
There are far too many alternatives from other countries to even entertain an American distro. My opinion, anyway.
This is true, but then why not base it off Guix (the GNU distro)? ..I'm sure Fedora is full of binary blobs and not-so-free software.
If they needed it, they could still add extra software and blobs to Guix, sourced by the EU... and I think doing that would allow it to carve itself a niche (a version of Guix with more compatibility would be interesting for many) rather than sticking a white label on Fedora and call it something else. I don't see a lot of value on this over just using Fedora directly, I'm not sure if it's true that Fedora & Red Hat do not benefit from this... wouldn't their support agents be able to just start providing support also to EU OS customers if they (both customers and support agents) want? Wouldn't it make it more interesting for private companies working closely with the government to choose Red Hat as a partner when it comes to enterprise Linux?
I guess we'll have to see how much they customize it, but in my experience with previous attempts, I'm expecting just a re-skin, just Fedora with different theme. At most, with some extra software preinstalled. I don't think that's a threat to Fedora or Red Hat, but rather an opportunity for expansion.
I wonder how much work is entailed in transforming Fedora in to a distro that meets some definition of the word "Sovereign" 🤔
Personally I wouldn't want to make a project like this be dependent on the whims of a US defense contractor like RedHat/IBM, especially after what happened with CentOS.
I didn’t know red hat was working for the US government. Can you tell me in what way?
At the same time, Red Hat released the first version of Red Hat Enterprise Linux, Red Hat Enterprise Linux 2.1. The Army deployed Red Hat’s operating system in its Blue Force Tracker system, which lived in jeeps and tanks on the battlefield. Major General Nicholas Justice, the man responsible for Blue Force Tracker, said later:
“When we rolled into Baghdad, we did it using open source.”1
To this day, the U.S. Army remains one of Red Hat’s largest customers by volume. Red Hat was recently made part of the Army's Common Operating Environment, which is their enterprise standard.
I didn’t know red hat was working for the US government. Can you tell me in what way?
tldr: https://www.redhat.com/en/solutions/public-sector/dod
Various documents in (what wikipedia now calls) the "2010s global surveillance disclosures" showed that many components of NSA (and other Five Eyes partners) infrastructure is run on RedHat Enterprise Linux.
According to a 2008 study by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, private contractors make up 29% of the workforce in the United States Intelligence Community and cost the equivalent of 49% of their personnel budgets. RedHat is part of that industry.
It's often illuminating to search a company's job listings for words like "clearance". There are currently only eight listings for that query at RedHat but sometimes they have many more. Here (archive) is a current one. Here is another one archived last year.
Here is the text, in case the archive site loses it
Consulting Architect, TS/SCI + Polygraph Clearance Required (Fort Meade)
remote type Remote
locations Remote US MD
time type Full time
posted on Posted 30+ Days Ago
job requisition id R-038935
About The Job
Red Hat's Public Sector Consulting team is looking for a Consulting Architect with a solid background in Linux, container platforms, IT Automation, virtualization technologies and an active TS/SCI + Polygraph security clearance to join us remotely in Maryland. In this role, you will help Intelligence Community customers design and operate core infrastructure that can scale to the demands of the modern digital marketplace. You’ll work with customers in small teams to build, test, and iterate over innovative application prototypes attached to real business value. You’ll use a variety of modern application development practices, along with emerging technologies from open source communities to get it done. As a Consulting Architect, you will help us become the defining technology company of the 21st century built on open source principles. You’ll also help us to fulfill our vision by guiding the strategic success of our customers using Red Hat's solutions by building the industry's best team of open source developers and partnering with our customers to build the premium software systems of tomorrow.
This position requires frequent on-site work at Fort Meade and an active TS/SCI + Polygraph security clearance.
What You Will Do
- Deliver successful discovery, analysis, and design workshops for teams of technical and non-technical backgrounds that shape the customer use cases and architecture design decisions
- Scope delivery projects and guide customers through successful pilot and production deployments
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- Work with customers on the writing of business justifications if needed
- Work with the open source community to engineer labs-based software solutions designed to further accelerate our customers' success at Labs
- Become a trusted adviser to our customers, helping them achieve business success in an ever-changing technology landscape
What You Will Bring
- Active Top Secret w/ SCI security clearance + Polygraph
- Broad knowledge of Red Hat OpenShift, Red Hat Ansible Automation Platform, and Red Hat Enterprise Linux
- Broad and deep technical experience with virtualization, container, and cloud technologies
- Solid Linux system administration skills; Red Hat Certified Engineer (RHCE)-level Linux skills or better; certifications are a plus but not required
- Experience with cloud technologies, especially Red Hat OpenStack Platform, Amazon Web Services (AWS), Microsoft Azure, and Google Compute Platform (GCP)
- Extensive technical experience with virtualization, especially Red Hat Virtualization, VMware vSphere, Microsoft Hyper-V, and Citrix XenServer; VMware Certified Professional certification is a plus
- Solid debugging, troubleshooting, and general problem-solving skills
- Great customer service skills and desire to make users successful
- Positive attitude, ability to work as part of a team, and excellent written and verbal communication skills
- Deep understanding of working with DISA, FISMA, NIST, and STIG security guidelines and how to adhere to them
- Experience working within the US Department of Defense (DoD) and US Intelligence Community (IC)
- Ability to make on-site customer visits
The following are considered a plus:
- Practical experience with Red Hat Satellite or similar systems-management technologies
- Experience with Red Hat Ansible Automation Platform or other IT automation and configuration management tools like Puppet or Chef
- Experience with datacenter automation tools and processes
- System administration or datacenter architecture experience
- Windows system administration
- Ruby, Python, or PowerShell programming experience
- Ability to study and learn quickly and put new topics into practice
- Passion for open source software
#LI-REMOTE #LI-AL2
The salary range for this position is $138,350.00 - $228,310.00. Actual offer will be based on your qualifications.
Pay Transparency
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But it's a good starting point. Better than inventing everything from the scratch.
I read the sovereign to mean something like an unified platform for EU institutions, that you can dev and train people on.
dependent on the whims of a US defense contractor like RedHat/IBM
A very good point.
Great sentiment I guess but I don't see any reason to believe this will amount to anything.
Scammers never let a good global crisis get in their way.
- Rebadge a distro and say it's fromm the EU
- .....????
- Profit!
- Collect a hefty donation from EU
Based on a US distro whose versions are supported for 1 year, and "built to the requirements for the EU public sector" (because the EU public sector has one coherent set of requirements and the dev knows them, even if he doesn't list them out).
This is most probably good-intentioned and it is admirable how the dev sprung into action, but it's naive at best.
I thought it was naive as well, but because they based it on a mayfly distro that has really great validation and reliability but it's gone in a fortnight.
Wither Almalinix or Cloudlinux or PCLinuxOS or Mandriva? Three of them have really solid support structures and at least one of them has amazing compatibility options with libraries for services.
There are options. A few of them could be better than fedora while fedora is still owned by redhat as redhat dies from suffocation -- hell, its all just fucking ancillary bull (Ansible) they sell now, as its metastatic cancer (Systemd) eats it alive.
@SpiceDealer Sorry, what ? How can it be made in EU if it's a Fedora fork/derivative ?
As a Swede we claim all of linux to be finno-swedish :)
@lambipapp Legit 😆
I mean Fedora is open source but if they really wanted a european base, they could have gone with opensuse. AFAIK opensuse is the only fully european linux distro plus they use many of the same tech that redhat/fedora does.
Ultimately I think it doesn't matter too much since even the linux foundation is based in the US and large parts of what makes the linux desktop are maintained by non-EU companies (on top of all the major projects hosted by Github, Gitlab including most of Flathub). If its all open source, I think the risks are pretty low e.g. huawei was able to use Android despite all the restrictions.
@notanapple The more I read the docs, the more I think it doesn't matter, they are poking around an EU distro. Nothing more, for now it is a proof of concept, not entitled to produce anything production ready
Of all the distros to base it on, why would they choose fedora?
openSUSE is right there lol
@ScotinDub I would say because it helps corporate adhesion, but no, they have no clue it's just a POC for now eu-os.gitlab.io/goals
Yeah, not a lot of distros they could've based it on, which are less rooted in the EU. 🫠
OpenSUSE is German
@Ephera OpenSUSE is first to come to mind, then probably Mageia + OpenMandriva (Mandrake derivatives).
All these EU opensource initiatives looks really good, but I fear that they may just be trying to pump taxpayer money and produce actually nothing usable.
Is this made by European union I wonder
From the subheading on the ReadMe.
Community-led Proof-of-Concept for a free Operating System for the EU public sector 🇪🇺
So it's made by the EU in the sense that the maintainers are likely citizens of the EU, I guess.
Alr thanks
So it’s made by the EU in the sense that the maintainers are likely citizens of the EU, I guess
Even after that, be reminded that this current mania in the EU has nothing to with being anti-american or wanting to dump American products or services themselves. The people who are most into this are anti-Trump, not anti-american or fundamentally against Europe being subordinate to the US. Most of them are probably secretly wanting the world to return to 2024 and EU being US junior partner of "the west" and happily eating MacDonalds and using microsoft services. It's not an European sovereigist movement at it's core and therefore it has not staying power after Trump or Maga.
It might be that these people are just Foss enthusiasts with pure intentions wanting to promote the cause by riding the wave. However if the wave is just a meme conjured because of Trump then this project or things like it have no staying power or future even if it really being an EU project or being adopted tomorrow.
No. It's one dude.
Ah okay
And it's based on fedora? Man, that's great
