Not trying to be banned or anything, just genuinely confused about the topic.
We are reading online articles about something that happened 'long' ago, far away, that can be pointing to one way or the opposite.
For me is very difficult to trust one article more than other.. It looks like people that want to believe one side will find something to back their opinion and vicecersa.
I don't agree when you say this is 'easily' verifiable. At least I don't find it easily to verify.
Happy to be pointed to some source/direction to investigate more.
I think you are correct that there are parts of the protests that are difficult to verify.
Some parts are easy to verify. There are videos and photos. People were killed brutally in the crackdown.
But the reporting and sources from that time (and now) can be a bit lacking. Information was spotty, and of course anything official can't be taken at face value.
We went through some of this in a Chinese Government class I took. This about 10-15 years ago at a U.S. university. We were looking specifically at how many people died. The Chinese government said a couple hundred. Some western media said over 10,000. Hospital records were like 500. The true answer is difficult to know. We sort of have to interpret the claims based on other information that we can verify (photos, different accounts of the events) and make a best guess to what the true range might have been.
Like anything that's been turned into online propaganda these days, a lot of extreme claims are thrown around to support an unrealistic interpretation of facts. For example, western media claiming over 10,000 deaths turns into "western media was lying to make China look bad" turns into "it didn't happen".
If I have time later I'll try to revisit this thread and point you to some of the better sources I found.
TL;DR: good faith skepticism of specifics can help us learn. However, tankie/wumao skepticism is not really grounded in fact
I have the suspicion that the CCP is very scared of knowledge of Tiananmen spreading, not because of the amount of victims (fairly low by Chinese standards and for how large the protests were), but rather that they are scared of the knowledge spreading of how much popular support the movement had and of how widespread it was. Most soldiers were also unwilling to attack civilians, so army divisions had to be brought in from far away and the soldiers had to be subjected to misinformation to goad them into attacking civilians.
Afterwards the CCP took steps to ensure that next time, the army would be more loyal to the government: officers who had no qualms with attacking civilians were rewarded/promoted, and those who had not executed their orders were purged. Dictators need immoral people to execute their orders.
CCP is brutal against any form of resistance. China is the only developed country with firewall that censors normal every day words.
China is an absolute autocracy and everytime people advocate for it I can't help but cringe. But hey did you see how developed they are - you can even pay with your fingerprint 🙄
These are disproved very fast by the fact that the chinese government doesnt want you to talk about it. Governments dont usually create whole censor campaigns around things that never happened. And before you say us this and us that, the us is also trying to cober things up and we also know a lot of those things because they get leaked. Talking about the us is a classic tankie move because it diverts your attention from the actual thing you were talking about, china. Just move to europe if you can and help in making a place that isnt an absolute shithole because sadly, currently europe is getting really close to that status.
In the 90s, I found a second-hand book published in English by the PRC (can't remember which ministry) giving the then-official line: that the brave soldiers of the PLA resolutely faced down the forces of a foolhardy counter-revolution and saved Socialism.
There was a reddit post of pictures of the massacre that were very detailed and graphic. Came out a few years ago. These were never before seen pictures that the redditor had kept for years and decided to release them. I wish I had had the for thought to save them cause I can't find that post again at all. Only things there now are the same pics you see everywhere else.
I have to say though, it is amazingly annoying that nearly any search for Tiananmen Square usually just returns the "tank man" pictures, as if that's all there was to it.
It's very likely that I saw a repost, but I also remember that imagery on Reddit too, so you aren't alone (on Lemmy at least) in coming across that post. Wish I had a link or something to help you find it.
I've never really given any credibility to the Tiananmen Square denials but that post cemented any possible doubt I could have had.
The fact that any other pro-democracy protests in China from that point on can be counted on one hand is quite frightening.
And no more "student protest" from what I can find...
China, among others, isn't great with letting their population progress away from the current power structure.
They are headed for decline anyhow. The corruption and boondoggles are still happening regardless of their media reporting on it and as a group the party was able to cover it's ass fairly well over the years but now their focus is on protecting one Pooh Bear shaped individual. Divided priorities is leading to some epically bad decisions.
Its in mostly sung in Cantonese with a few mandarin phrases mixed in, particualary the main phrase 愛自由,為自由 which means "Love Freedom, For Freedom"
I didn't find a translation, but here is Google translation (with some of my tweaks, since Google translate is imperfect):
With lofty ambitions in mind and a heart full of righteousness,
we strive to create new worlds and move forward with all our might.
We will go through the long journey with our noble spirit, you and I will always hold hands.
Bravely create new areas; sweat splashing, but not tired; blood splattered, but not afraid.
Love freedom, for freedom, you and I strive for progress together, hand in hand.
It cannot be waved away, it cannot be stopped, the surging ambition fills the world and traverse across thousands of mountains.
With lofty ambitions in mind and a heart full of righteousness,
we strive to create new worlds and move forward with all our might.
We will go through the long journey with noble spirit, you and I will always hold hands.
Even though the road ahead is full of thorns; sweat splashing, but not tired; blood splattered, but not afraid.
Love freedom, for freedom, you and I strive for progress together, hand in hand.
Can't be waved away, can't be stopped, ambition surges all over the world, traverse across thousands of mountains.
Love freedom, for freedom, you and I strive for progress together, hand in hand.
It cannot be waved away, it cannot be stopped, the surging ambition fills the world and traverse across thousands of mountains.
Its much more poetic in Chinese, you can't translate such poetry. (Even I struggle to understand it, since I only went to 2nd grade in China)
Just make a new post then. It wasn't even an equivalent comparison. They could have used an image of the Bonus Army or an artist's impression of the Whiskey Rebellion.
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I mean, there were warning signs before June 4th. Those who left before probably survived. As for those who stayed, and if they managed to survive that day, they would probably be identified and arrested, but some managed to escape to then UK-controlled Hong Kong.
Yellowbird successfully helped more than 400 dissidents, who were smuggled through Hong Kong, and then onwards to Western countries. Notable escapees include Wu'erkaixi, Chai Ling, Li Lu, Feng Congde, Chen Yizi, and Su Xiaokang. Three Hong Kong–based activists were arrested by the Chinese authorities, but later released after the intervention of the Hong Kong government.
The 21 most-wanted student leaders' faces and descriptions were often broadcast on television. Photographs with biographies of the leaders followed in this order: Wang Dan, Wuer Kaixi, Liu Gang, Chai Ling, Zhou Fengsuo, Zhai Weimin, Liang Qingdun, Wang Zhengyun, Zheng Xuguang, Ma Shaofang, Yang Tao, Wang Zhixing, Feng Congde, Wang Chaohua, Wang Youcai, Zhang Zhiqing, Zhang Boli, Li Lu, Zhang Ming, Xiong Wei, and Xiong Yan.
Each of the 21 students faced diverse experiences after their arrests or escapes; while some remain abroad with no intent to return, others have chosen to stay indefinitely, such as Zhang Ming. Only 7 of the 21 were able to escape. Some student leaders, such as Chai Ling and Wuer Kaixi, were able to escape to the United States, the United Kingdom, France, and other Western nations
The remaining student leaders were apprehended and incarcerated. Those who escaped, whether in 1989 or after, generally have had difficulty re-entering China up to this day. The Chinese government has preferred to leave the dissidents in exile. Those who attempt to re-enter, such as Wu'er Kaixi, have been simply sent back but not arrested.
Chen Ziming and Wang Juntao were arrested in late 1989 for their involvement in the protests. Chinese authorities alleged they were the "black hands" behind the movement. Both Chen and Wang rejected the allegations made against them. They were put on trial in 1990 and sentenced to 13 years in prison. Others, such as Zhang Zhiqing, have essentially disappeared. After his initial arrest in January 1991 and subsequent release, nothing further is known about his situation and where he lives now. Zhang Zhiqing's role and reason for being listed on the 21 most wanted is generally unknown; this is the case for many others on the list, such as Wang Chaohua.
According to the Dui Hua Foundation, citing a provincial government, 1,602 individuals were imprisoned for protest-related activities in early 1989. As of May 2012, at least two remain incarcerated in Beijing, and five others remain unaccounted for. In June 2014, it was reported that Miao Deshun was believed to be the last known prisoner incarcerated for their participation in the protests; he was last heard from a decade ago.
Also, some of the leadership got purged:
The party leadership expelled Zhao Ziyang from the Politburo Standing Committee (PSC). Hu Qili, another PSC member who opposed martial law but abstained from voting, was also removed from the committee.
As bad as it may sound, remember that, during Imperial China, they would all just lose their head, like the Emperor would literally order your head to be cut off. It could've been much worse.
As bad as it may sound, remember that, during Imperial China, they would all just lose their head, like the Emperor would literally order your head to be cut off. It could've been much worse.
There's also the existence of eunuchs in ancient Chinese governments. Having your business chopped off in order to become a member of the leadership in your country takes a different set of values and priorities.
Does anyone have good book recommendations on China's recent history? I wanna learn about the creation of the PRC, the cultural revolution, the '89 democracy movement. I have started reading the Wikipedia articles but it's just so dense and dry and I'm having trouble following it, I'm having trouble understanding the social state the described events happen in.
Was just wondering if there's good books that explain everything better.
Fenby’s 'History of Modern China' is epic and magisterial but far too long for this (goes back to the mid-1800s), while McGregor’s 'The Party' is good for post-‘89 but doesn’t really touch the topics you’re interested in.
Richard Kraus' books 'Very Short Introduction' series is apparently excellent.
Two I’ve not read but come recommended:
The Cultural Revolution: A People’s History, 1962–1976 – Frank Dikötter
Tombstone: The Great Chinese Famine, 1958-1962 — Yang Jisheng (not strictly what your internet stranger asked about, but the roots of the Cultural Revolution are surely to be found in Mao’s Great Leap Forward.)
Finally there is also a doco 'China's Cultural Revolution: The Full Story' - on YT/NewPipe etc. - quite good!
Sit tight; I will ask my bro-in-law. He will, no doubt, have an answer. If not, he'll at least have a reason why it doesn't exist 😆 Recommendation incoming.