You're viewing a single thread.
I am tired of these comparisions. The Ukraine war has a clear good and a clear bad side. The same cannot be said about the Israel/Palastine war. Both parties are equally shitty. There is just one side much more powerful so more capable to commit cruelties. The only clear good people here are the civillians suffering on both sides.
Seems like both articles should be horrified about a bombed hospital but maybe that's just me.
i would argue both articles should probably just be talking about how hospitals were bombed, rather than writing an entire diatribe on the emotional states of everyone involved.
But that's just me, i like my reporting neutral.
Sure but one article is a breaking news type of article and one is about a bad thing that has already happened and now they are merely entering the hospital.
I dont know the specific of either event but is it possible that more people died in the Ukrainian hospital?
is it possible that more people died in the Ukrainian hospital?
No, it's not. Al-Jazeera reports 2 deaths in the Ukrainian hospital, The Guardian reports 4. IDF reports 200 Palestinian casualties in Al-Shifa, Palestinian authorities report 400+.
A hospital full of civilians being bombed is bad regardless of the context. There's no point in media outlets spinning shit like this. They're just acting as propagandists for Israel by throwing softballs like this.
The Ukraine war has a clear good and a clear bad side. The same cannot be said about the Israel/Palastine war.
It's funny, because I've seen so many white nationalists assert the exact opposite.
white nationalists assert
I know you're getting down voted to hell but I agree. People are losing sight of just how shitty Hamas is. This is exactly what they wanted, they care even less about their own peoples lives, happy to use them as human shields. A hundred thousand martyrs. Fucking embarrassing to be human sometimes.
No one is losing sight of that, they're correctly making the point that there is no justification for bombing a hospital full of patients and that the justification the IDF gave has been found to be false.
It's the opposite. Israel/Palestine war has a clear evil side (Israel) and a clear victim (Palestine). Ukraine war is a complicated mess.
That is a wild and backwards take!
So the victims are the ones who openly call for the death of an entire group of people? Their founding Charter literally calls for the elimination of Jews.... and after they slaughtered the women and children in October they said they'll do it again. They're the victim to you? Interesting.
Palestine is far more black and white than Ukraine. I'd recommend you read up on it.
Okay, so Russia Invaded Ukraine. Russia is the Aggressor.
The Hamas attacked Israel, so Israel exterminates Palestine and claims it wants to exterminate the Hamas. The Hamas have committed Warcrimes and hides the self behind Civilians and the IDF does a whole lot of warcrimes too. Both sides are shirt,, just the IDF has done a bit more shit than the Hamas. Theres no good side in this conflict. Both sides want to exterminate each other and sacrifice the Palestinian civilians for this.
I don't know where you see a more black and white scheme in the middle east conflict than in the Ukraine war, but I'm willing to read your explanation.
You appear to forget 75 years of israel invading Palestine. And putting Palestinians in a concentration camp.
And 75 Years of the Hamas Attacking Israel. Israel has killed much more Palestinians that the other way around, but its still more complicated than The Ukraine war.
Hamas hasn't been around for 75 years.
There was no nation of israel before Israel committed mass murder and near genocide on the Palestinian people. Then they shoved them into the concentration camp of Gaza. Made them.wear special green badges just like the Nazis made them wear the star of David arm bands. They make Palestinian people walk on the opposite side of the street in many places. They do not have the same rights to life liberty or property that Jews have. The Israelis were the first aggressors. And have continued almost 100 years of brutalization against the civilian people. The Israelis are no better than the Nazis that they fled from and in my opinion are not deserving of a nation of their own.
Hamas has not existed for 75 years. It is born as a resistance movement against Genocide.
Than let me formulate it in another way: 75 years of the Palestinian also attacking Israel.
75 years of Palestinians resisting colonization you mean right?
Ukraine has also been attacking russian troops since the beginning of the invasion, what's your point?
If Ukraine started a terror campaign against non-combatants, it would be a reasonable comparison. Problem is that while you can cite Hamas operations against military/police targets, we shouldn't ignore the operations on non-combatants. Even as the IDF has done wrong, Hamas has done wrong in a similar way, albeit with fewer resources and thus to a lesser extent at this point.
It's what I hate about the whole "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter", it likes to present even terroristic acts as morally relative according to context, but it's just not the case.
That highlights the point precisely. Ukraine is targeting Russian troops, i.e. legitimate military targets. Hamas targets civilians and uses civilians as human shields. The IDF doesnt care how many civilians they have to go through to get to Hamas.
Ukraine is targeting Russian troops
They also started sending unmanned air vehicles with explosives to Russian infrastructure such as oil. Which I'm not against. Because they're defending themselves against an invasion. As Palestine is doing. The situation of Palestinians is much, MUCH more dire than that of Ukrainians, so it's only to be expected (not to be confused with justified) that their response is also more violent.
uses civilians as human shields
Sorry, but that's strictly false, and propagating that shit is heinous. I'll paste here what someone else said in the comments:
So this piece doesn't source any evidence that it was used and ignores the literal fact that later investigations by Amnesty didn't find credible evidence of use as a military base and the massive Israeli misinformation campaign on that front: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_military_use_of_al-Shifa_hospital#:~:text=During the Israel–Hamas war,Hamas and hospital administrators denied.
But yeah let's justify Israel bombing away access to medical care to people forced into a small, war torn area because fuck Palestinians I guess.
My point is, that in The current conflict the Hamas attacked first. Ukraine didnt.
Hamas attacked first
Palestinians was there before Israel was even conceived, and the first Nakba, in 1948, which marks the hard line of the invasion, in which 750k+ Palestinians were forcibly relocated, was started by Israel. History didn't start on October 7th
That's why I pointed out that the CURRENT conflict has been started by the Hamas. Israel may have started this conflict a long time ago, but the Palestinians also have their fair share of commiting warcrimes and violence against Israel.
If Jewish people in Nazi Germany had started a series of terrorist attacks against civilians, would you be comparing them to Nazis and telling that "both have a fair share of blood in their hands"? Because it's THAT black and white.
Ukraine attacked first after Russia invaded them.
The only difference is one of those people is brown and you believe colonizing brown people is okay.
Bro wtf? I never said that colonizing Palestine is OK. I fucking told you that Israel is also commuting large amounts of warcrimes and is commuting genocide. I told you that both sides(Israel,Hamas) are fucking assholes that don't care about the Palestinian people who are the biggest loosers of this conflict. Where the hell did I said something racist?
Hamas is trying to achieve a ceasefire right now. Israel is not.
This is not a both sides thing. You have just never bothered to read up anything about Hamas.
The racist part is where you sympathize with white people resisting annexation but believe brown people resisting far worse settler colonization and Genocide is very wrong.
The racist part is where you sympathize with white people resisting annexation but believe brown people resisting far worse settler colonization and Genocide is very wrong.
I never said that.
Hamas is trying to achieve a ceasefire right now. Israel is not.
This is not a both sides thing. You have just never bothered to read up anything about Hamas.
And? It is good that they try to achieve a ceasefire, but that doesn't mean, that they are the ultimatively completely neutral good guy.
75 years of history that quite literally nullifies it being black and white, because history, as well understood by historians, only makes things more clearly visible, obviously.
75 years of Genocide makes it pretty black and white to me.
You're kinda downplaying the word genocide with your comment. Not a very efficient genocide if it's been going on for 75 years.
This is not an opinion of mine, it's what I read from your comment.
and germany was committing genocide for 45 years??? (hitlers general age of doing things)
Please fuck off.
And helping Hamas get into power in order to
- destroy Palestinian unity
- squash secular, progressive, democratic leadership
- promote violence
If you want to see what happens when Palestinians cooperate with Israel, look at the West Bank:
Dude they have been fighting for the whole time and for every bad thing Isreal has done Hamas has done one back.
Ever heard of the saying "and eye for an eye and the whole world is blind". Well both sides are blind now.
The only correct take is that both sides suck and the palastenian people are the ones who suffer. To take a side in this conflict is uninformed, as both sides have way too much blood on their hands. This is very far from black and white and simple.
Dude they have been fighting for the whole time and for every bad thing Isreal has done Hamas has done one back.
Damn, that's disgusting. I'll rephrase it in terms that hopefully will make you understand why it's disgusting: "Ukraine has been fighting back the invasion the whole time, and for every bad thing Russia has done, Ukraine has done one back"
Ever heard of the saying "and eye for an eye and the whole world is blind". Well both sides are blind now.
What are Palestinians supposed to do? Peacefully accept being relocated and murdered by the hundreds of thousands? Should Ukrainians just have given up? Is Ukraine wrong for targeting infrastructure inside Russia with explosive unmanned air vehicles now?
The only correct take is that both sides suck and the palastenian people are the ones who suffer. To take a side in this conflict is uninformed, as both sides have way too much blood on their hands. This is very far from black and white and simple.
One side has blood on their hands because it's the invader, the other has blood on their hands because it's the invaded. This is the most stupid take I've seen.
This is just blatantly false. You don't know anything about the history.
What was the 2018 march to return? Only one side is seeking peace. And israel only seeks destruction.
This Genocide is what israel has been doing for over 75 years.
Nothing about middle east conflicts is close to black and white. I'd recommend you read up on it.
Nothing about middle east conflicts
Spoken like a true racist, grouping up "middle east conflicts" as if it was a single entity.
Pretty easy actually, Palestinians were there living their lives and having a sense of nationality as Palestinians since the latter years of the Ottoman Empire. Zionists decided they didn't care about that, decided they deserved their ancestral homeland, and western countries helped them militarily to relocate hundreds of thousands of people and murder tens of thousands on top. It's almost quite literally that easy.
Spoken like a true racist, grouping up “middle east conflicts” as if it was a single entity.
most people would do the same for general geographic regions though.
If it were a war between germany and france for example, it would be referred to as a "western" war. Russia vs China would be eastern for example.
Most of these wars are culturally related, especially in the middle east where they seem to have a particular style of warfare, it only seems fair to refer to it as "middle eastern" arguably, the only one that isn't really doing this style of warfare here is israel. Though they clearly have reservations on morals.
Wow, funny, I didn't hear the bombing of Yugoslavia and its disintegration, the invasion of Ukraine, and similar conflicts in Europe ever called altogether "European issues", but separated very well individually.
well technically, semantically it would be "eastern european" even though it's not really a thing. And it is generally considered to be a "european" problem, if you look into the matters from a more global perspective, it's entirely fair to state that.
My main point though was that it's not "racist" to exclaim that, it's just incredibly broad and referential. Which in current times is probably reasonable.
My point is that extremely broad claims about extremely different and unrelated issues, and painting them all "oh so difficult", is a tool used by western media to make people think the problems are too complicated to be solved and there's just nothing to do about violence in "the middle east", as US and its allies weren't responsible for more than half of it.
I'm Iranian, and there's no hope of going home any time soon. It's perfectly acceptable to lump the middle east in that statement. Show me one conflict in that region that's not black and white.
Show me one conflict in that region that's not black and white.
I assume you mean the opposite. I'll bring you one about your own country.
In the Mosaddegh era, a democratically elected, secular, progressive, leftist leader was well on the way of successful policy for Iranians through the nationalization of the oil industry which, up until then, as you probably know better than I do, was extracted by the British Petroleum with the knowledge and approval of the Shah (thanks to some juicy "contributions" to his personal fortune paid by the British), leaving almost no profit from the Iranian oil to the Iranian people. The British blockaded Iran militarily, and through MI6, with help of CIA, staged false-flag attacks on private businesses through paid actors who pretended to be communists (the party was in Mosaddegh's coalition). They literally bribed local mafias and gave them loudspeakers to pretend they were popular protests to prime people. And the poverty induced by the military economical blockade, summed up with all this shit and much more, made it so that the Mosaddegh government was deposed and the status-quo was more or less restored, and British Petroleum was happy.
Tell me how that's not black and white.
That isn't how racism works.....is racist turning into the left version of "woke"? His comment wasn't even out of ignorance, that is what that area is referred to, and nothing about conflicts in that area (including the topic at hand) is black and white...
Grouping up a whole set of countries, ethnicities, histories and conflicts into a "middle east" category and call treating it all as a homogenous "non-black and white" issue is racist, sorry.
nothing about conflicts in that area (including the topic at hand) is black and white
Thank you for ignoring the inconvenient part of my previous comment. Please tell me how the first Nakba isn't black and white.
It is the name of that region and conflicts within it are still conflicts in the Middle East. Still not racist, sorry. You get this worked up over people mentioning Europe or "The West"?
If people grouped up every single geopolitical conflict within Europe under a single category of equally non-black and whiteness, they'd be ignorant to do so. When western people do that with the middle east, it's just an excuse to keep their minds free of it and dismiss it all and the responsibility of their governments.
Funnily enough, you know where in middle east there weren't these "non-black and white" issues until three decades ago? Kazakhstan. Uzbekistan. Turkmenistan. Tajikistan. Azerbaijan. Kyrgyzstan. I wonder if there's something black and white about the whole thing now...
Imagine saying a literal Nazi style Genocide is not black and white.
Are you going to say Hitler actually had a point next?
Godwin's Law strikes again. The sure sign that someone has run out of logic for an argument
Are you denying israel is committing Genocide?
are you denying the war that russia is waging against ukraine?
No but I don't see how that's relevant here.
cool, love me some cognitive dissonance.
Just stop. This conflict has been going on for ages and is so complex, people have to actually study this shit to even remotely understand it.
Russia just fucked Ukraine.
All of this aside, the comparison of the two headlines is just dumb. The left side was from 2023, right after it happened. This was the official statement back then. What should they have written instead? They even used quotation marks. Fucking hell.
You understand neither conflict and speak of it as if you do.
There was never a Hamas base found in al Shiva that was a lie. The left headline is Zionist propaganda from the Guardian.
No, it was the official statement back then before investigations were made. This happened a couple of days after the Hamas kidnapped and killed a shit ton of Israelis. There still was some miniscule amount of credibility in this official statement, which turned out to be bullshit after a while.
And yes, I absolutely understand the invasion by Russia. That is not a complicated thing. I do not fully understand the Israel - Palestine conflict and neither do you. There's also way more parties involved than Israel and Palestine.
What you're doing is posting disgusting populist propaganda, downplaying the horrors of one conflict to shift attention to another. Just stop. Both conflicts are fucking disgusting.
Israel never had any credibilty before oct7. Every sane journalist knew how much israel lies about everything. Such as how israel killed an American journalist 1 year earlier and lied about it for half a year straight. Putting their lies in the headline is pure undeniable propaganda there is no plausible deniability.
Never have I downplayed what happens in Ukraine. I am only pointing out how the media heavily manipulates people in favor of Israel. Showing the extreme double standard.
And if you think Russia and Ukraine are the only players you understand as much of it as I stated before.
Injecting your emotions into this whole ordeal doesn't make it any truer. I'm in no way defending Israel by the way. I think Netanjahu is a fucking Nazi prick. But comparing the two headlines randomly like this is a form of propaganda. You're doing this to invoke anger in people. I came to Lemmy to be free of this shit.
Except for treaties supporting the 2 factions, Russia invading Ukraine is a crystal clear situation. There's no complexity at all. Putin decided to attack Ukraine once more, after annexing Crimea. Putin is a lying, power hungry sack of shit. Much like Netanjahu. But the whole Israel Palestine thing has a way longer history, with way more parties that were actively involved.
I'm any case, at least we agree that both wars are shit and I do appreciate that.
I am not defending Putin either. Putin is and remains a brutal and oppressive dictator.
But the background of the Ukraine invasion is far more complicated than Russia just wanting to invade for land. This is about NATO promising Russia not to expand eastward and doing so anyway.
If Russia made a pact with Cuba to store nukes and ballistic missiles right next to the US, do you think we would just let that happen? The Russian invasion was entirely predicted by US policy makers far before it happened. Here's a decent video on it.
So yes Russia broke their promise of not invading Ukraine. But NATO also broke their promise of not expanding eastward next to Russian borders. And NATO the rejected Russian membership application to join NATO.
Ukraine is being used as a battleground for NATO and Russia, which are both bad and imperialistic, to conduct a war. And I do support Ukraine in the war because it's their land. But it's not all black and white.
far more black and white? What in the ever living fuck are you talking about?
Ukraine was literally legally guaranteed that russia wouldn't invade them, after taking their nuclear weapons. Russia LITERALLY broke this agreement. How much more black and white can you get than quite literally going against what you've said?
Care to explain it if it's so simple? You have no idea what your talking about..
Simple:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
The whole "so difficult conflict which goes so far back that it's impossible to know who's guilty at this point", starts in the late 40s with the invasion of Palestinian land by Zionist settlers, and the violent displacement of 750.000+ locals.
Israel = Nazis.
It's literally that simple.
Holdup! The Israilies are trying to create the aryan race and kill all Jews? Man..it really IS complicated!
Israel is white supremacists trying to kill brown people and expand their Lebensraum.
So complicated.
You must be literal genius
