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This is kind of silly.
I'm definitely working class, like I couldn't stop working and coast the rest of my life on what I have saved now without really cutting everything to the bone.
However, I max out my 401k and iras every year. We also put enough money aside that our two kids will probably need to take out little to no money for their college educations. We are contemplating how many hundreds of thousands of dollars we can afford for a house renovation, and we can still take two comfortable vacations per year.
I'm very comfortable and know I am very lucky.
Which is why it's absurd to put me in the same category as the people who literally have cut everything to the bone and still worry about making ends meet at the end of the month. While we should still team up against the owning class, our financial situations are drastically different and shouldn't be treated as the same because that would do a huge disservice to their actual relative situation.
Sure you can argue that your financial situation is a bit better, but the power dynamics between yourself and owners is still the same regardless if you make a lot or a little and more importantly, salaries change. When your job isn't considered competitive anymore you'll be in the same boat or if you get laid off or you get sick, etc.
Sure, which is why I think we should still team up. However, that doesn't change the fact that we are in such ridiculously different positions that it's nonsense to try and pretend these are "made up" just to keep people down. Like my tax rate is higher, and it should be. There are very obvious reason these have different terms, and "it's just conspiracy by the man to keep us down!" without a shred of evidence to back it up is just, well, mindless conspiracy shit.
Sure there are differences - but it's absolutely not a mindless conspiracy. They may have not invented the terms but the right uses them in a very effective divide and conquor strategy.
Just turn on conservative news for your evidence. Every single day they use 'news' about how the lower class is lazy, they don't want to work, just want handouts, etc. etc. And it's aimed at people like you who do have more in common with the lower class than the rich so you'll vote for their tax cut. Even in this thread you'll find people repeating these right-wing talking points.
I'll add that it's admirable that it hasn't worked on you and you still have the empathy to see eye to eye with lower classes. Sadly though, it works on a lot of people.
I'm not so you were previously engaged with, and am fortunate enough to be in a similar boat to you.
I would just like to point out that in the context of having a conversation with a 13 year old, starting with working class solidarity is a good idea. I think the next step in that conversation is (for people in situations like ours) to acknowledge the factors that have led to our success, and agree that our privileges don't mean we should abandon our less fortunate peers to exploitation. We should still seek an equitable world.
I'm not opposed to the "working class" idea, I'm opposed to the attempt to make it into some kind of conspiracy to keep everyone down.
I think what they are trying to get at is, it's important to instill in the younger generation that the big picture is that there are owners and there are workers. All the rest are just manufactured microcosms of the bigger picture that we can't even begin to tackle without understanding why these microcosms exist in the first place and dismantalling the structure that keeps them in place.
This helps them understand our current class structure for what it is, fake. This can help kids feel not so alone in the daily struggle, they have lots of allies! This may even drive this youngster to start an ethical charity or run for office to help enact change. This bigger picture is often whats missing when kids learn these things in school or life and why so so many kids grow up thinking they can make it big only to burn out young when they are struggling to just get by even though they played by the rules, here we are teaching to not blame yourself you did your best! It's not about dismissing the vast wealth differences we have as the working class so much as teaching that those differences are subject to change at the whim of the ownership class, teaching solidarity and empathy along the way. Imo it's a good teaching moment and it's the same one I got as a kid, I like to think I turned out okay if not a tad jaded a bit too young haha.
I absolutely agree. I just like to be honest with my kids and if I start feeding them stuff like "we're basically in the same position as that homeless guy and the whole idea that we're in different situations is just a conspiracy by the ultra wealthy to keep us down"... Well, they're bright kids and will realize that I'm full of shit soon enough.
Also I think teaching them that we're lucky to have what we have and to give (both monetarily and our time) helping out those less fortunate than us is going to do a whole lot more to create solidarity with the rest of the working class than feeding them be conspiracy theories.
It sounds like you don't really believe in the class struggle because you can't fathom that you have more in common with a homeless person than a billionaire.
How on earth did you get yourself to this conclusion? Lol
Yep. It's almost like different words with different meanings are useful to express different thoughts on different contexts.
ouch that must've hurt...
I don't think it's about denying the difference between subsistence living and moderate wealth, so much as prioritizing a framing that identifies the systemic issue of capital rather than a comparative placement on an arbitrary scale.
It's not that those comparisons don't exist, it's just less important than the shared relationship to capital, and happens to distract from what's actually meaningful.
While it may not be explicitly denying it does infact, IMO tell a 13 year old to disregard the difference in the way this is written. So I think the comment still stands that this isn't a great way to highlight the difference between our work to a 13yo
It tells a 13yo that comparative wealth isn't what matters, capital ownership is.
It isn't 'silly' to dismiss the former, it's the entire point. Unless you disagree with capital being foundational to class relations...?
I think we agree more than you think. I am not asking that someone disregards the class separation and understanding it is very much a created system to separate that fine line.
My point is that this post is very literal and can come off as doing the opposite it can fill a person's head at that age with, "you should also disregard it because it is made up and doesn't exist." Quite literally when the argument to be made is that while it is made up it very much is in active use and very much exists and disregarding where you stand in the world isn't being realistic or self aware if you want to change it you have to work hard for it in most cases. The point is that it is also silly to disregard that while class is a social construct it is in use and ignoring it can put you at a disadvantage too. You could create the expectation that because it is a construct that not acting on it or against that construct is a problem as well.
My point is thirteen year olds are still very much developing kids that are very easy to manipulate and or they very much can misinterpret a point being made. I could see this being said to a kid that took it literal enough that they decide the best course of action is because it is made up it must not exist therefore it isn't a problem and therefore they don't need to do anything about it. That was my point. I don't disagree with you but I think posts like this are meant to self justify other social constructs that already misconstrue ideas and we live in an age of information where straight forward statements like this are also not the bigger picture and could be equivalent to someone just flat out making a post that The Earth is flat and we have learned that young people are easily influenced.
Yes I understand that the earth being flat is an actual conspiracy but it was also established as a joke and someone took it quite literally and ran with it. The Internet is dangerous and as adults we should be explaining both sides of the fence to our youth.
"Hey classes are a construct to control it and separate so that way the wealthy have more say so and can control our rights as people. However, don't treat that created system as fictional because it is very much in place and disregarding it is bad for you and others. If you want to change then be aware of it and make something of yourself so you can be that person with the ability to make those changes." I don't know about you but I would rather someone young interpret it this way rather than outright ignore it because regardless of what we think the truth is capital is absolutely relative to class relation and the culture and laws and people in power make sure that is the case. Teach young people to acknowledge that and encourage them to be aware and change that. Both can be taught but this image doesn't express that. You and I are on the same side friend. I just took the image here more literally and if you and I can agree there are multiple ways to interpret this then imagine what a teenager would do with this single statement and developing brains.
EDIT: top that on top of things teens are already trying to understand and deal with. Their social life, understanding who they are, anxieties from their brain and developing bodies. Social fitting in, sex, education, forming their own opinions and selves and creating an identity. Then just coming out and saying, "disregard that dad is literally a working class member because the rich said so." It isn't how I would handle it. I would want my kid to know exactly where we stand and who has control over where we are life wise and ask them to be better or do better and change that.
I'm definitely working class
.
I'm very comfortable
These are not mutually exclusive. We can acknowledge our privilege but still recognise that we are in solidarity (or should be) with those who have fewer privileges.
No one is saying you're the same, and certainly not the same in every way except class.
It's like me saying that both myself and Sid Meier are both millennials does not mean we're in every other category together.
These are not mutually exclusive.
Which is why I very explicitly said I was both.
but still recognise that we are in solidarity
I even explicitly said we should team up.
I would accuse you of responding to the wrong post, had you not explicitly quoted parts of mine.
I read your comment, but I disagree that pointing to a common working class is "kind of silly." It does not erase anything else you said. It's just one category.
The point is we all sell our labour for money, and we can never stop doing that - not how much money we get in exchange for our labour.
I guess I wasn't clear with that statement. It's claiming that the recognition of these differences is a conspiracy to keep us down that I think is silly.
I figured that would be obvious because that is what the tweet is about, but I guess I should have been more clear.
I don't see any reason to bring conspiracies into it, it's just the way people are socialised to think of poorer workers as inferior, or workers with the most perks as the "betters." I'm not accusing you of this, but it's a part of the same dividing principle outlined in the op.
Like I'm sitting at 6 figures fucking around on my phone while someone fixes my dishwasher downstairs, so I'm feeling the privilege intensely atm. I recognise there are real, material differences between individual workers.
However when talking about class specifically, I think it's very important that we don't muddy the waters between workers.
I think that's what's got people (myself included) riled up by your comment.
I don’t see any reason to bring conspiracies into it
This is my point. The submission is about this important recognition being a conspiracy to keep us down. I think that's silly.
Well that's where we disagree then
So you think claiming that these terms were made up by the owning class in order to divide the working class is not a conspiracy theory? What is it then?
You must have heard of "None of us is free, until we're all free!" before, right?
I'll use the example used a lot during COVID: we're all in the same storm, but we're not all in the same boat.
I don't follow.
During COVID Some of us were “essential workers” and others got to complain about being stuck at home. But that was a minor gripe of mine. I would argue that arguing that people belonging to different strata of working class is about as useful as separating people by race. For the most part any conversation that doesn’t specify the need for the separation there is only one human race, and there is only the working class against the owning class.
I think that’s the mythical middle class that some of us in the working class are lucky to be a part of. In my case, I’m not in a comfortable saving situation now because the Covid years fucked my finances with a cactus, but living in a cheap neighborhood and having a white collar job means I can see a way out.
This got me thinking about the use of “middle class” in politics. It’s like the carrot for reasonable people that know they are not temporarily embarrassed millionaires. You don’t work hard and save for yachts, you do it for actually retiring.
Oh yeah, I definitely do it for retirement and to give me kids the benefit of getting an education without being saddled with massive debt. Although, I think they should have some skin in the game for college as I hope it will make them take it seriously, unlike with me who partied way too much.
But make no mistake, we can afford these things because we live frugally. We both drive used hondas, our grocery store is Aldi, we review our budget every month to keep things in check, we walk everywhere we can, we rarely eat out, etc..
Haha, 2012 mazda and 2013 Honda here for the foreseeable future.
I think I can see myself getting a fun fast electric car in several years, but I also really really like the idea of retiring a bit earlier, so we’ll see.
Get a fun fast electric bike and retire even earlier.
(sorry I know this is unrealistic for most north americans I just fucking hate car culture and can't help myself. Have a nice day)
Yep, I like reading the “fuckcars” communities, but where I live was built to accommodate car culture only. And given the reddish tint (as in US Republican) of the area, I don’t expect it to change, especially to anything “European” looking. We do have traffic circles though!
The only big change I expect to see will be when robotaxies are ubiquitous. But even then it’s not like it will make the area more walkable. You just wouldn’t need to own a car to live in the suburbs and even some nearby rural areas. But I assume I’ll be using the car/bus-centric infrastructure my whole life.
Bless you. The more people who know and care about this stuff the better. I'm hopeful the tide will eventually turn and it will be political suicide to oppose urbanist design.
And yet, you are an accident or a cancer diagnosis away to lose everything and needing a divorce so you and your wife don't lose your house.
Probably not, as we both have good insurance. This is another advantage my position has.
What line of work are you and your spouse in, if you don't mind me asking?
Tech and health care
Why is it absurd to you? Why do you need any more class distinction between the ruling and the working? To increase the granularity only serves to prove the post true.
I don't need anything. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of pretending we are all in the same boat, and that it's all some conspiracy by the guy in his mega yacht to divide us when people point out that my boat will weather much more intense storms.
While there is a lot of sense on what you say, I prefer the class distinctions made by Karl Marx because it does not factor economic differences between workers. He defined classes in 3 groups, independently of their money. It only depends on their relation to the means of production. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxian_class_theory
You're an idiot to think that money defines you. You might think you're not a narcissistic asshole but you are. Regardless if that's all projection from the "rich" class. You're their narcissistic pet boy.
You might think you’re not a narcissistic asshole
I don't know you well enough to make an actual determination, but I'd be willing to bet that this is quite the projection.
You'd lose. Just like you will when the investment into the printed worthless "paper" gets slammed like 9/11 as described in 3:71 & 3:73. Turns out it wasn't a prediction but rather a plan to rob the working class. At least, those like you who were suckers to consider wealth to be valid when it was printed in paper of no true value but painted with the entirety of theft.
I'm of an entirely other direction path. Your blatant narcissist being conduct on behalf of the paper printers, the billionaires, is so blatantly obvious that only you can't see it.
You think your stupid plans have value. Stupid not because you are but because you swallowed the bit of money wholly and have zero track now; when the theft is conducted right in front of your vision.
That theft is being done right now. But sure, it's not theft the way your work isn't slavery. That because you made the choice to work for result of their being rich because you're not lower class...
...yet...
...sucker.
Maybe not narcissistic, maybe just delusional.
Yeah. Delusional. Because you think your money has any real value. You'll remember this when it's too late and I'd be like "I told you so" but everyone dies so I won't be here either.
I could change that, but I won't because no one listens and no one cares so I'm of the point to just let everyone die and move the fuck on. Why would I bother to bust my ass magically when everyone else shoves their head in a sandpile of literal garbage? I don't even need real magick this time and yet my only disposition is to not do so when no one else does.
Go on sucker. Idgaf about your blatant insults defending yourself. You just can't deal with the fact that that doesn't do that ever.
Idgaf about your blatant insults defending yourself.
I've seen nothing to defend myself against. It's just been a bunch of incoherent rambling coupled with empty insults. Although I have to say it's hilarious to see someone so full of themselves accuse others of being narcissistic.
Again, insults ignoring everything. Although, I'll give you you might just be thoroughly and blatantly stupid.
The difference: I'm not ignoring what you say as an excuse. I don't need to in order to feel better.
Well, you started off calling me an idiot, so if you failed to get your point across to someone you clearly believe is your intellectual inferior, then that's really on you for not speaking to your audience. Shows a real lack of empath and arrogance.
Huh, sounds a lot like an narcissistic asshole.
I have no empathy. I simulate it very well but still. I care but the truth is painful and if you can't swallow it, then you deserve zero respect.
There's implied if to the idiot statement. So let meYrehash that a little more explicitly for you. IF you think money is of real value then you are an idiot. A sucker. Dumb.
You clearly don't understand the definition of narcissist. Go look it up and then come back to what I said that claims anything of my own, personal value. I have and do regularly assassinate my own ego. It's only existence is for the sake of communicating with others and recognizing my physical presence. IDGAF. You might jump the same shit and get the fuck over your damn self in order to accomplish andly real education. Unless you've sailed past the notion and refuse to subject any sense of self to any reality.
There’s implied if to the idiot statement.
You’re an idiot to think that money defines you.
There is no implied "if" there. The English is very simple and clear, if you didn't realize what you were saying, you're just confirming how delusional you are.
I'm absolutely serious when I say this: your grasp on reality seems tenuous. Seek help.