Hot Take: 5e is too bloated with unnecessary rules and should be simplified
Hot Take: 5e is too bloated with unnecessary rules and should be simplified
I recommend this video to look more into OSR philosophy regarding the rules: https://www.youtube.com/live/bCxZ3TivVUM?si=aZ-y2U_AVjn9a6Ua
5e has both too many rules and not enough rules.
It has very specific rules in some places. Item interactions, many spell specifics, grapple, holding your breath, etc.
It has very lackluster rules in other places. Social conflict, item and spell crafting, metagame stuff like making your own class or species.
I think a lot of people playing DND would be happier playing a different system. Just not the same system for everyone.
Exactly. It's sort of an uncomfortable middle ground, but also just kind of messy.
And I'm tired, as someone who DMed it a bunch, hearing people act like broken or missing rules aren't a problem, or somehow even a good thing, because the DM can just make something up. Yeah, not shit. I can do that in literally any game I run. It's just unpleasant to do in 5e, yet I have to do it all the damn time to keep the game running smoothly. I'd rather have a game that either supports me as a GM, or is easier to improvise.
I think it was a different thread where I posted about how a guy in my dnd group straight face told us something like "the beauty of DND is we can just try out different rules. If we want to do a chase scene we can try it one way, and if it doesn't work or we don't like it we can try something else".
I'm just like that's not a unique property of DND. That's just how playing make believe works. And I'd rather have a game that runs okay out of the box rather than keep playtesting as a DM, or deal with unchecked dm whims as a player.
This is why I'm switching to GURPS. It has rules for everything, but it's very clear that you only need a handful of them, and the rest are options you can decide to use or not. I'm probably not going to use the rocket equations in the Space book to make space travel more realistic, but it's nice that they're there in case I wanted to.
I like the middle ground where 5e is
DND writes its rules to be as quick to read and apply to basic situations, but then becomes unwieldy in many if the non-standard cases because they didn't take the word count to fine tune the rules work as you necessarily would expect, and thus they become confusing.
Something like PF2E (while not perfect in clarity, but much better) has much more verbose rules, but they do a better job of making them apply to non-standard situations closer to how you expect more often.
It also suffers from not using consistent language and keywords in the rulings.
The more recent rewrites are better but there would be way fewer discussions on "what exactly does this mean" if there were consistent keywords for things.
...also I am currently writing a pile of homebrew to try and run a spelljammer game because those books they released inspired me to run a Treasure Planet campaign but didn't give me nearly enough material.
Calling 5e and pf2e bloated with unnecessary rules, meanwhile Pathfinder and 3.5e are quite literally full of a couple decade's worth of volumes and modules, in comparison to OSR?
I don't know if you're a boomer, a troll, or both
3.5 has a ton of splatbooks, sure, but they're expansions. You go in one, if you want, at character creation to pull out a cool class you want to play. Not playing something out of that book? Then you never need to think about it. It's not like you have to have encyclopedic knowledge of all the hundreds of splatbooks; all the rules are contained in the DMG and PHB, just like with 5e.
Does the existence of a whale make it wrong to call an elephant big?
They're not just calling it big, they're calling an elephant big in comparison to a crude 8 year old's drawing of said elephant (and of course the colouring is not inside the lines because it doesn't have to conform to the consistent rules of an elephant). What purpose does that serve unless you're the 8 year old trying to make your drawing sound impressive? See how small and unique my elephant is?
Meanwhile the whale sitting right next to the elephant is like wow that was a very specific callout on their size when I'm sitting right here. That kid must really hate that elephant.
It's quite ridiculous. Wrong or right don't factor into it.
PF2S is bloated with unnecessary rules. If that’s your thing, and I totally get the appeal of having a “wait let’s just see what nethys says abou — Oh apparently there are mechanics for this drug” moment; personally I find it really gets in the way of the session. Rule and move on with the story. Keep the mechanics to what they need. We’re ultimately dealing with a pretty simple underlying system: d20 roll high. All the subterfuge and wordy mechanics don’t really change that at the end of the day you need to roll a d20 and generally do better than a 12 or so to do what you want.
I feel like pf2e has just enough rules to empower the players to the level I like
The more DM fiat a game has, the more trust I need from my players for things to go smoothly.
That's not a bad thing, necessarily, but for me structure is usually good as long as it doesn't raise the skill floor too high.
Once I've got trust built and feel a bit more experimental, I like Dungeon World or even Universalis
We’re ultimately dealing with a pretty simple underlying system: d20 roll high
I highly disagree with this sentiment. You do you, but this is not the general feeling of TTRPG players.
PF2e is a joke. It requires reading the whole rules and planning out a character for multiple levels before making your first character. It gatekeeps the hobby worse than FATAL.
Yeah, PF1 and 3.5e are bloated as hell. But you didn't need to read all the feats for all the races before picking human fighter. Plus the people still playing those never used everything that was published.
If you got to look up rules and nobody cares or wants to, skip it. Its my advice. Use rules only if its necessary and soemwhat contributing to a fun experience.
This is universal.
This. Our entire campaign is home-brewed using the 5e ruleset, but the application of those rules is selective when it needs to be.
For the most part, we're following them, but if there's a rule that results in a level of attention to detail that we simply don't care to implement, or would have less fun trying to religiously adhere too, we just scrap it in favour of something a bit more light-touch and call it a house rule.
Rules provide a great framework to base your game on, but the ultimate aim is to create an enjoyable experience and have fun, so bend them and break them when and where you need to for the benefit of all involved.
One risk with this is when you have a new player join your group. They might expect raw and be surprised by a whole kettle of home brew.
I for one would be annoyed if I joined a group and found they were ignoring the rest rules. They may be having fun but I would have made different decisions if I'd known what they were actually playing.
5e isn't just needlessly complex, it is an unreferencable mess that has very poor general rules with lots of exceptions and poor standardization. The rules for traveling are so misplaced that most players don't know they exist, not that it's possible to find them when needed. And when there are general rules, they tend to be unfun. Stuff like crafting has no depth in 5e, it's just time + gold = item. It might "work", but it's just bookkeeping there is no hidden fun.
For fantasy, I prefer Hackmaster 5e, because it keeps the complexity and detail without dumping special case rules onto players. It's not perfect, but it's way more engaging and characters feel way more interesting. WFRP 4e is also nice, but not as deep (it does suffer from rules being scattered everywhere). I'll likely end up playing OSE ot some point.
5e is pretty light though, and in most cases too light so the DM has no idea what to do and has to resort to "Rulings".
PF2e on the otherhand is crunchy AF and its awesome like that. It doesn´t have extra rules for everything, its all based on the same framework, which is pretty awesome.
You see, OSR fans would argue both 5e and Pathfinder have broken core rules engine because if it was well designed, you could apply it to all situations and wouldn't need separate rules for every minutia. By these standards 5e is crunch heavy with unnecessary things like "how to hold your breath"
But that's valid criticism. Rules have to justify their existence
At that point, you lose a lot of verisimilitude, and that's pretty important to me.
PF2 is certainly easier to run. But tell me when it becomes a RPG, it's basically a video game system ported to tabletop. Everything is about the builds, not the characters.
What would it take to make it a RPG? Some characters are flawed in certain things while excel at others. But what you want your character to be, its in your hands due to how you build your character. That´s part of your character, same goes to the backstory you may have developed and inform your build.
But tell me when it becomes a RPG, it’s basically a video game system ported to tabletop
Uh.... tabletop came before videogames...
Anyway, no. An RPG is a Role Playing Game, it's a game where you take the role of someone, either created by you or given by the game (be it a videogame or not), and you experience the things that happens to that character.
Saying that TTRPGs are video games ported to TT is like saying that Lord of the Rings is a story written within the DnD lore. It's completely wrong.
Depends on the game the group likes. More narrative driven game it can conflict and have issues
However, there is something nice about knowing a balanced way to do x or y across the board and at different tables.
A good gm should be able to make a note of something or make a quick call especially in pf2e case were generic difficulty dc per level is given
However, there is something nice about knowing a balanced way to do x or y across the board and at different tables.
I don't agree with this argument. Balancing is the job of the GM. Unless the GM acts as a glorified screenreader who only reads a pre-made adventure to the players with no influence what happens. But if the GM decides what monsters you run into, the GM has more influence over the balancing than the game framework. So why not lean into it fully and make the GM responsible for the whole balancing?
I mean, pen&paper RPGs aren't a players vs GM game, but instead the GM plays together with the players to create an interesting experience where everyone has fun. No need for the framework to do balancing, because a good GM will do that.
So why not lean into it fully and make the GM responsible for the whole balancing?
Because having things balanced properly in regard to the myriad options that are possible in people imaginations is hard, especially related to combat. Improper balacing leads to people having a bad time, while having an established, fair ruleset lets the DM and the players focus on other things.
No need for the framework to do balancing, because a good GM will do that.
But at this point why even have rules? A "good GM" can just entirely improvise a system.
While GM decides what monsters to throw into players, they still need to know what they could use without it being either underwhelming or overwhelming. You dismiss this simply by saying: "just be a good DM".
- New DM's will want guidelines to start from.
- If combat is important having written rules help to use consistent ruling on same situation in different instances.
- Story focused DM might reduce amount of effort needed to plan combat, since there is no need to build it from scratch.
Disadvantage of having to look up rules then you don't remember them could be mitigated by just saying: Look guys, I don't remember ruling now, so not to break the flow, I will rule it this way, and look it up later.
So while for most players rule heavy systems are less accessible, they are actually more accessible for many DMs, and since mastering have much higher barrier of entry, such systems at least should not be dismissed outright.
Yes, the GM balances - they decide what type and how hard the encounters will be. But after that decision is made, it's the job of the system to provide the GM with tools to build that encounter and help me balance things: How much skeletons provide the difficulty I want? Is a lich too much? Red dragon or white dragon?
In 5e, you don't have the proper tools imo - the challenge rating is next to useless. In PF2, you have something akin to point buy for encounters - and if it says the encounter will be "moderate threat" - then you can trust that in 99% of the cases.
But at the end of the day, as a GM, if I want to provide my players with a hard, but fair fight, I don't want to have to guess what will work and what won't. Yes, with a lot of experience I will have an idea of that, but why would I pay for a system that just offloads the hard part of their game design to me? Good encounter-building tools don't get in the way of your creativity.
Balancing is the job of the GM.
And some systems make that job easier for the GM than other systems. Winning all the time without challenge is boring. Getting TPKd every other session does not feel good. A good GM should hit somewhere in-between. So you either have a system that helps you do that or you really need to have a lot of experience.
So why not lean into it fully and make the GM responsible for the whole balancing
Because they should have fun too? Having to rule and improvise everything makes for a harder job for them, needing to keep track of everything to make it consistent, and it's also bad for players too, since they don't really know what to expect.
The framework helps the GM be able to do so, its another tool.
I mainly say that in such a way that if a character is thought to be a pusher the player would know that to push I have to be this close and cant push something thats x times bigger (or some other thing). A GM can (and should) adjust and change things if it would make it more fun for the table but the framework helps understand the world better. for some parts the GM is not directing but explaining what happened.
I push the rock off the edge of the cliff, bar something else, it should fall. The GM at that point is giving the results of that action, what is the result? the GM could simply say that it fell and hurt someone it landed on nearly killing them. the issue comes when the same situation comes up and the GM does something different because they think it should do differently (a different GM more then likely ) this breaks flow if things are different. (assuming all things are the same in both situations for simplicity of course). The Frame work put that a rock fall would deal X amount for how far it fell and the players would have the knowledge (while it would be slightly meta, it would be a "world" known if the rock would deal less damage then the pointy sword XP )
That's what I meant by balance across areas, expectations are known on what some cause and effects are. Frameworks are great ways to help guide things through HOWEVER, a giving framework/gamesystem is not perfect nor a fit all for all game types and tables. A Group also shouldn't need to "go into the weeds" constantly (or at all during a session), something made on the fly or close enough is good to keep things moving.
I mean, pen&paper RPGs aren’t a players vs GM game, but instead the GM plays together with the players to create an interesting experience where everyone has fun.
Full Agree, but the next part is that the Framework helps the GM do the balancing
But if you have the tools that tell you how to make differently balanced encounters, it makes the job of balancing the game waaaay easier.
Keep balance for computer games. If I’m playing an RPG I want to be able to do crazy things if I plan and execute it properly. And rules for stumble attacks of opportunity for holy clerics of the sun just get in the way of the good stuff.
This is entirely correct. Balance does not matter in most games, because most games have resources that are depleted over a long term. You don't need balance when healing takes weeks or difficult to replace resources.
For games like 5e and pf2, where characters constantly are at full health, spells and equipment, combat needs to almost kill the party every time to be worth rolling dice.
5e has too many rules? If anything it seems to be lacking rules. D&D in general has too many options, but 5e often has nothing if you want rules to handle specific non-combat situations,
When systems go even lighter, it stops even feeling like we are playing a Game, and it starts feeling like annotated improv, which is very much not what I want to play. It never feels right to me as a player to be making sweeping declarations without knowledge of what the GM and the other players are planning.
Okay, explain to me why do you need rules for holding your breath in 5e. Because that's a good example of too many rules, in OSR you would use something already existing.
And you do you, but really the OSR tend to teach players to find ways to avoid rolling altogether by stacking deck in their favor before attempting something.
Frankly I could point it right back at you as the example of a good thing to have. If you need to dive underwater without equipment or cross smoke during a fire, it's useful to have a reference of how long you can keep at it, how many rounds does that take, how much distance you can cross, what happens once you can't keep at it anymore. We are talking about adventurers, it's surprising that this is somehow thought of as an irrelevant edge case.
Are we expecting that the player should always have spells or some magic scuba for this?
I really don't get what's with OSR and not wanting to roll. I'm playing an RPG, I'm up for rolling. Though in this case, the rule does not even require rolling until you are already drowning.
For the few times your players want to swim a lot underwater OR if you use monsters designed to drown them long term
Okay, explain to me why do you need rules for holding your breath in 5e.
Because water is generally everywhere and you might go in it? Surviving poisonous gases? Strangulation? If you wanted to point at rarely used rules there's a plethora of better options to pick. This is more like asking why do you need rules for combat.
I disagree for 5e about that. In fact many 5e players complain about the lack of specific rules (but IMO they merely want to play pf2e without admitting it).
To me, the problem of 5e is the community first, and lack of specialty second. 5e does a bot of everything. So when you're looking for osr, you will miss many osr feature and many things are too specific or bloated. If you're looking for rule heavy ruleset, it'll be way too light and dm dependent.
they merely want to play pf2e without admitting it
In my case, I wanted to play pf2e without knowing it. I've been running a DnD curse of Strahd campaign, and I've been getting more and and more irritated at long rests, challenge ratings being meaningless, and martial vs spellcaster balance. Pf2e solves all those issues, and I didn't even realize till I sat down to do prep for a campaign.
I don't have a problem of caster vs martial in 5e. And I don't have a problem of balance either. But I know all people who do are indeed a lot better with pf2e.
To me this is a question of finding the ruleset that fits your table.
Meh, don't play it, then. Why turn everything into a competiton?
Because
editionsystem wars are fun?(in moderation)
If we simplify 5e any more it’s gonna turn into Snakes & Ladders. And clearly OSR already exists, so there’s no need to change other systems.
5e is actually on the high end of medium crunch. That's not a bad thing though. The game mostly works and it is fun, but it does have its rough spots. I agree with you about not needing to change it though
Simple rules that can describe almost every situation are also rules that over-generalize characters to the detriment of options (everyone's noticing the same things, instead of perception allowing more observant characters to do what they could do), over-include the player's capabilities in place of the character's. (Players conversational skills failing to match with those of the character they intend to play), overly abstract what they describe (a monster's "power" or a character's actual abilities meaning something in adjudication but nothing consistent/concrete enough in-world), or demand a DM adjudicate without reinforcement or restriction (In the absence of rules every corner case ruling risks the danger of turning the table into a debate between PCs and the DM, inviting rapid ends and either producing embittered DMs or embittered players* - especially under the "pack it up" approach the video suggests - and helping to increase combative tables in the future.)
The games that OSR takes inspiration from did a lot right in their mortal power-level, reasonable growth, real risk of danger, and humanistic tones but if you're trying to sell me that the growth of rules that followed aren't a direct result of weaknesses in those games? I don't think we'll agree.
*The "Dorkness Rising" problem, for a slightly more light-hearted allusion.
Me and OSR are a complete mismatch in execution. But we work in theory and design. Where we clash is where the meme is. Simple basic rules that are to be used in pretty much every situation. Where the GM is empowered to make those rulings. Where the GM is King.
I have tried running them and constantly kept asking myself "according to the rules what am I supposed to do?" as I want to run systems as they want to be ran. What is a failure? How does the outcome space look like? And when I get to play I feel I get to relinquish so much control to the GM that I feel almost powerless. The GMs rulings and fiat rules. Sure these are my experiences and I can love OSRs and their designs while not wanting to acctually play them.
5e is already too simple, playing anything simpler makes me want to vomit.
Plus, OSR games are generally made by the most absolute vicious racists and general bigots imaginable. Genuinely awful in every way possible.
Can you link me some sources on the racism/bigotry? Genuinely curious, didn’t realize this was the case.
OSR has a vocal minority or reacitonaries giving it bad name. But even among perpetually online, they're a minority. Facebook had two OSR fan groups - one for reactionaries (it's now deleted) and other being very welcoming and progressive. The latter had ten times as many members.
He's likely referring to the New TSR, which did make a pretty racist race section for a game. But they already are basically dead as a company, if not actually bankrupt.
The only other scandals would be WotC getting sued for labelling Adnd stuff as racist, when WotC made at least 2 books with racist art in the 2020s. Or the Zac S lawsuit, where a pornstar OSR creator was accused of stuff then won the lawsuit so easily he looks like the nice guy in porn. Reggie (LotFP) is also weird, but not the average creator. He's basically just an eccentric artist.
The OSR is way less bigotted than WotC. Hell Shadowdark was made by a lesbian and she is very well regarded even by people critical of SD as a system.
I once again recommend the video, as it adresses both your points.
I don't find 5e bloated exactly. But I do think it has a few too many systems in place, sometimes with overlapping use-cases.
Like attacks, skill checks, saves... They're all basically the same thing, an opposed check, but they have slightly different rules. Sometimes the player is rolling against a target, but sometimes the target is rolling to save against? It's a little strange, and adds a bit of extra complexity where I don't really think it's necessary.
A lot of it is just legacy systems that are kept because it wouldn't be D&D without them.
It's nice so you can strategize and not just roll against a high ac all the time.
You could force a Dex check against a slow tank or an intelligence save against an authoritarian.
I'm not complaining about having different kinds of opposed checks. I like that there are lots of different things to target, in fact I wish different kinds of checks were more accessible so that combat was more varied.
I just find it weird that they have different game mechanics. Like, attacking has the player rolling against a defender's static DC. Except actually sometimes the defender rolls to save against an attacker's static DC? And Dex saves are actually represented twice, once as an actual save to dodge things, and once as AC. Precisely because there are those two overlapping systems at play.
That's why I enjoy Weird Wizard and Demon Lord. They streamline this overlap pretty well and removed the bloat
Also because if they made a simple system, they wouldn';t be able to sell more books.
This introduces confusion in new players like "sorry cat's grace only applies to dex skill checks, not saves". Which then makes them think all RPGs are a convoluted stack of exceptions, so they don't try other games.
Take a look at Knave. It is a parring down of 5e.
I'm really looking forward to 'Project: Black Flag' aka 'Tales of the Valiant' aka 'CORE Ruleset', which a like-like to 5e (compatible in regard to power-scaling and adventures) that's in development right now. My community plans to switch to it as soon as it's out as they are cleaning up a lot of rules and pushing for a world-agnostic system that feels a lot better from both a player and a DM.
I don't know who needs to hear this, but you can try games Powered by the Apocalypse!
Played in few one-shots, wish I could get into a longer game but I'm busy between running 5e, playing Vampire and trying to get second campaign in fate or BitD going.
This is why I play Shadowdark. It’s amazing. All the best bits of 5e design, none of the cruft. Ruleslite is the way to go.
Hello! So I’m not trying to stir the pot or anything.
Have you looked at Shadowdark?
https://www.enworld.org/threads/plenty-of-time-to-die-a-shadowdark-review.697134/
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/413713
It was very highly anticipated, had a very successful Kickstarter, and he’s been very well reviewed.
The author has written several well reviewed fifth edition adventures.
Shorthand way to describe it I’ve seen is, modern rules, old school style.
I’m throwing this out there, because it has been described as an old-school variant of fifth edition.
It is so old school that you have to do three d6 down the line.
Also, there is a very interesting real Times Torch mechanic.
A lot of Osr games, put attention on things like scarcity and time this phone put a lot of attention on light.
I haven’t read it so I don’t know for sure but to me that sounds like possibly inspired by dark dungeons. Although I know that wasn’t the first game to have a very prominent darkness mechanic either.
Just wanted to throw this out here I never want anybody to change game systems. I just thought it might be interesting for people who hadn’t heard of it.
I think 5e is simple enough the issue is that its become ridiculously sprawling as WotC endlessly add more and more classes to the point that its eroding balance pretty badly.
They've only added one class
Presumably you're talking about subclasses? If so, I disagree to an extent- a lot of the subclasses have a valid reason to be included, since they fit more specific archetypes that people might want to play, for instance the conquest paladin fills a niche that doesn't really have any strong alternatives. The issue I have is power creep- it feels like Strixhaven, for instance, throws the balance right out of whack with Silvery Barbs, while Tasha's Cauldron gives us the Twilight Domain cleric with all it's issues. If the new subclasses were balanced well, I'd be fine with having more of them, since players only need to remember the rules for the one they're playing at the table, if that makes sense.
Absolutely. When I read the way a round is handled in 5e my first impression was: How many movie and book heroes signature move do they want to cover with this jungle of rules? "Oh, I've seen X in movie Y doing Z! That was awesome, and I want my character doing that move in D&D, too!"
It's true; 5E and most versions of D&D are just too heavy and get in the way of actually having fun.
I think it says something that out of old editions B/X is still so well-regarded among old-school fans for being simpler than AD&D. Sadly when I ran it for my players they found it too counter-intuitive. I consider it a personal failiure as a gm to properly represent the system, even though they assure me it was not my fault.
Yeah I wouldn't worry about it too honestly; it's very tough to get into OSR style games without having watched a session, played a game, or read a few OSR-y Internet thought pieces. Much of how it's done is cultural and not presented in the books. That is one of the things that later editions of D&D are better at.