TIL that his museum says that "Roald Dahl’s racism is undeniable and indelible"
TIL that his museum says that "Roald Dahl’s racism is undeniable and indelible"
This is the first I've heard of it, but here's one of his infamous quotes:
"There is a trait in the Jewish character that does provoke animosity, maybe it’s a kind of lack of generosity towards non-Jews.
I mean, there’s always a reason why anti-anything crops up anywhere; even a stinker like Hitler didn’t just pick on them for no reason.”
His other quotes tend to be condemnation about specifically Israeli zionism and barbaric murder, but i don't have context as to whether he's referring to palestine or not. Some people might have more sympathy for these statements these days, but a lot of his other quotes have to do with Jews controlling money and media, less defensible prejudice.
I was called into this thread to give my opinion as a bona fide and official Jew. I will say this about Roald Dahl- yes, he was an antisemite. But I still grew up with his books. Even my dad, who was incredibly sensitive to antisemitism and definitely knew about Dahl could not deny that he was an amazing writer both of children's books and macabre adult fiction. I remember specifically that he gave me The Twits when I was a kid, while at my also very sensitive to antisemitism grandparents' house. I don't remember others he gave me, but I really enjoyed that one, so I remember it.
I don't know, I guess we all have the occasional intentional blind spot for these things. Sometimes people are just so talented that you have to overlook their flaws. Of course, some flaws can't be overlooked. I won't watch a Woody Allen film anymore. I won't watch the work of a pedophile.
But Roald Dahl's racism was one where didn't actually do anything to hurt Jews. As the quote says, he wasn't even pro-Hitler. So I can get past it due to his talent. He was not the real danger to my ancestors in his lifetime and he was not responsible for a genocide. On top of that, he didn't extend his bigotry to any of his novels that I ever read.
You can't say as much for H. G. Wells, who had a virulently antisemitic moment in War of the Worlds. It's considered a classic these days. And what about beloved Charles Dickens' novel Oliver Twist? I would bet that the character of Fagin caused a lot more issues with British Jews than anything Roald Dahl said or did considering that novel was and is so popular that 19 films based on it have been made, including one based on a hit Broadway musical.
Piece of shit rapist Roman Polanski made a straight remake as recently as 2005 (and that's just weird because he's Jewish). It did really well at the box office and got a lot of positive reviews.
Imagine if a book with a character that was a disgusting caricature of a black person in it who is also one of the villains of the book and they were still making movies about it within our lifetime.
Edit: Also re Oliver Twist, I hear that in the version Alec Guinness is in, he's an especially antisemitic Fagin, but I'm going to choose to never watch it and pretend that isn't true because that man was amazing. Never mind Star Wars, ever see Kind Hearts and Coronets? He plays 8 members of the same family- believably- including a woman.
Jonathan Pryce received a fair bit of criticism in the nineties for his "politically correct" (read, not explicitly antisemitic) portrayal of Fagin in the musical Oliver!. Listening back to the cast recording, it's actually a revelation — Reviewing the Situation, which had always been played for antisemitic laughs, is suddenly revealed as an incredibly powerful song, brimming with pathos.
I don't feel like Fagin is explicitly Jewish in that version. I only found out it was originally "Fagin the Jew" later in life. He's kind of a loveable rogue with a London accent.
Edit: wrong version of the film, on second thoughts I think he might definitely be definitely supposed to be definitely Jewish in the Alec Guinness version.
I really don't think that makes it much better.
Imagine if the original written version A Christmas Carol had a big, stupid, lazy black character that was also needlessly aggressive. And then they made a movie, but instead of "Big Black Buck" or whatever Dickens decided to name him, he was changed to "Buck" and was played by a white guy? I doubt people would say that was a story worth making a movie about at all if you're going to have to erase the racism to make it work for a modern audience.
This is the crux of a lot of the counter arguments to 'cancel culture'. Don't get me wrong, if you're a racist shitbag, or a pedophile, you are a terribly flawed human, but that doesn't detract from other merits in other areas in my opinion. This may seem like a cop out, or an excuse for shitty behavior, but in my view you can be 'Flying Squid, the Nobel Laureate in physics and Racist Cocksniffer'. Humans are very complex beings: how can we fit them into black and white categories of good and bad?
I had an emotionally volatile childhood, devoid of positive influences that were beyond reproach. People I looked up to certainly had their flaws. I quickly learned to take the best out of what they had to offer, and be mindful of their faults. If we simply discarded people who were flawed we wouldn't have many people around us. Similarly, think about how much music came out of the 60s. Now think about how shitty a lot of those artists were, morally. Does that make their music less beautiful? No, but it does add an overtone, I suppose.
Piece of shit rapist Roman Polanski made a straight remake as recently as 2005 (and that’s just weird because he’s Jewish).
Well - you kind of answered your own reservation there: He's a piece of shit rapist. So I believe it's safe to say his main character traits are probably not defined by the religion he was born into, which makes it not quite so weird to me, as I generally do not try to rationalize behavior of people who have otherwise proven a complete disconnect from ethical norms.
I won’t watch a Woody Allen film anymore. I won’t watch the work of a pedophile.
I already had one Lemming absolutely lose their shit when I challenged them on this assumption, I hope you won't be another one. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?
You mean apart from the word of the person he molested, right?
Yes, I know, "she was coached."
I much prefer this stance to shutting down the museum. They acknowledge the issue in a way that allows people to form opinions and act in a way they are comfortable with.
Definitely, this was the right move by the museum.
don't have context as to whether he's referring to palestine or not
In 1990, during an interview with The Independent, Dahl explained that his issue with Israel began when they invaded Lebanon in 1982. "they killed 22,000 civilians when they bombed Beirut. It was very much hushed up in the newspapers because they are primarily Jewish-owned. I'm certainly anti-Israeli and I've become antisemitic in as much as that you get a Jewish person in another country like England strongly supporting Zionism. I think they should see both sides. It's the same old thing: we all know about Jews and the rest of it. There aren't any non-Jewish publishers anywhere, they control the media—jolly clever thing to do—that's why the president of the United States has to sell all this stuff to Israel."
I didn't realize he was referring specifically to Lebanon. Thank you for that context.
I have that quote in another comment somewhere.
That's what I was referencing when I was saying people can probably relate to his anti-israeli stance because of recent events.
He doesn't need to be specifically referring Gaza when speaking about the large scale land theft and genocide of the Palestinian people perpetrated by the state of Israel. The region of Palestine was stolen, not just area that is Gaza.
Israel was created largely because powerful people in Europe wanted the Jewish people out of Europe. Its very foundations are antisemitic. These notions of a Jewish state in Palestine started to have widespread antisemitic support before WWII and immediately after WWI.
Dahl may have been the type of bigot to be antisemitic and against Zionism. They aren't directly linked hand in hand.
"He doesn't need to be specifically referring Gaza when speaking about the large scale land theft and genocide of the Palestinian people perpetrated by the state of Israel."
I doubt he was.
"Dahl may have been the type of bigot to be antisemitic and against Zionism. They aren't directly linked hand in hand."
Yes, those views are precisely his stated prejudices in the above quotes.
He doesn't seem to have linked those two instances directly or causally, each is a skewed reasoming for why he doesn't like jews in general, within or without Israel.
You mean the land of Judea, where Jews originated from, and being such a targeted and closed society for the last 2000 years since Roman expulsion, have wished to return, l'shana habah byirushalaim is what we say every year on passover, it's always been the desire of the Jewish people to return to Judea, you know, before it was Roman "Palestine. We've got the worlds oldest land deed, our impramatur in the genes we carry in our blood, our DNA says we are from the Levant, that Arabs are from Arabia, that Arabs are the usurping colonists
Doesn't matter to the Jew haters, they won't hear of it, but we are home now, and are gonna fight with every ounce of strength we have to keep OUR homeland
All for Jewish folks living with the folks that live there. Indeed the Jewish people never left. A state is not required for this. Genociding a people and stealing their homes, starving them, is not peaceful coexistence. The eugenics aspect of your argument is totally gross and hard to gloss over. DNA purity is a buck wild bigoted argument.
How do you square that up with the horrific persecution of the peoples who have lived in that land for the intermediary 2000 years?
A little blood and land...where have we heard that before? You're just a plain old fascist.
So all the Jews in the US are gonna give their land back to the natives, right?
GTFO here with this dumb shit
When an interviewer asked Maurice Sendak (of Where the Wild Things Are fame) about Dahl, his response was memorable: "The cruelty in his books is off-putting. Scary guy. I know he's very popular but what's nice about this guy? He's dead, that's what's nice about him."
People are so much more professional back in the day.
If someone asked me about Bill Cosby, I would immediately go, "Yeah fuck that dude he drugged and raped women. All the good shit he did and he was a shitbag."
Ha! Thank you, that's amazing.
Great piece of history
Yep, he was a piece of shit in many ways.
The stories are still pretty great, though.
The stories are undeniably fantastic, how else was he a piece of shit?
Let me TIL something else about the guy.
The reality is that most people are terrible people, especially when we look at them years later, once the dust has settled.
(Look into what Dr. Seuss did to his first wife)
I remember reading a similar "dark" article about seuss.
Cheated on her?
Yes, cheated on her while she had an incurable wasting disease and married her friend.
"Helen Geisel struggled for more than a decade with partial paralysis from Guillain-Barré syndrome. Depressed by her worsening symptoms and possibly by suspicions of her husband’s affair with a close friend who would become his second wife, Helen took her own life in October 1967 at the age of 69. “I am too old and enmeshed in everything you do and are, that I cannot conceive of life without you,” read her suicide note. “My going will leave quite a rumor, but you can say I was overworked and overwrought. Your reputation with your friends and fans will not be harmed.”"
Let's all try to be kinder.
I will.
He was a POS, much like Lovecraft and Rowling.
Someone else mentioned this, but didn't follow up with any examples.
I am ready to TIL, how else was Roald Dahl a POS?
I heard something like this on...Reddit? Maybe. A while ago. They said something akin to while Dahl was racist he didn't let it encroach upon his writting like Lovecraft. I don't really read Lovecraft (haven't since a long, long time ago) but I do have a compillation of Dahl's writings. And I liked them. Didn't feel put off by them, outside of the fact that he can write some gross stuff. I am not sure what else to say on the subject other than it stinks.
I know lovecraft was racist in his personal writings, but I can't recall any specific exams of it inside his fiction.
He wrote so many stories, I would guess it must have somewhere, but I don't remember any and I've read almost all of lovecraft.
I should fill in the gaps with Lovecraft actually and finish the rest of it.
That's great you got a collection of Roald Dahl, I've definitely read all of his books multiple times, they are great.
I don't see evidence of racism inside Dahl's works either, except for like the oompa loompa is coming from Africa, being African pygmies?
I loved his books as a child. As an adult I read them to my kids and I'm strick by a lot of inappropriate language, normal for the time. Racism, fat shaming, child abuse.
Its problematic, and if I was black, I dont know that I'd be comfortable reading descriptions of oompa loompas to my child in a world full of racists. It made me wonder if I should not have read it to munchokd, who would not understand the stereotypes used, nor the allegory to slavery.
People discriminate against each other for all kinds of stupid reasons. Yeah, the word racism gets used for groups that aren't actually genetic in nature sometimes. Let's not be pedantic about the terminology used to describe discrimination against groups that have been the victims of genocide though.
Sorry, I don't get your reference.
Do you mean he's not racist because Jewish isn't a race?
In other quotes, he's much more clear that he's talking about Israeli people, like with zionism.
“I’m certainly anti-Israeli and I’ve become anti-Semitic in as much as that you get a Jewish person in another country like England strongly supporting Zionism. I think they should see both sides. It’s the same old thing: we all know about Jews and the rest of it. There aren’t any non-Jewish publishers anywhere, they control the media—jolly clever thing to do—that’s why the president of the United States has to sell all this stuff to Israel.”
It definitely seems to depend on which aspect of Jewish or Israeli culture or stereotypes he has problems with.
For good reason of course, Jewish rights organizations talk about themselves as Jews rather than as Israelis.
Not exactly the funnest mud puddle to skip through.
fun fact: neo nazis refer to jewish people and brown people, as "mud people", and use the term as their rallying cry for whom they wish to rid the white race of
I've seen another individual argue that it is in fact a race due to bloodlines running back to the source. I've gotta say I've got some of that fresh-squeezed jew-blood and even though I wasn't really raised around any Jewish folk and clearly am not religiously Jewish I have been picked out by practicing individuals for having some of that blood in me. As well as others, who are like me and miserable mutts cast to roam the Earth forever being mystery meat =P!
Perhaps there's levels to this though? I mean with the bigotry. I am not saying it's all roses, cause it ain't. But I am saying maybe when we get to the extreme that we want to wipe individuals from the Earth whomever they are (and whomever is thinking this) that's when we really know we're in the wrong. Then again I would cruxify all sex-offenders. So eh, who am I to speak? A nobody on this issue, but one last thing - I've got friends who are ethnically Jewish who absolutely do not see themselves as white. And yes, I know Jewish folk come in all shapes and sizes.
(p.s. - I refer my quantity of Jewishness as "jew" because I am lower-case ethnically but not even by Jewish standards (paternal) related to anything minuetly Jewish. Not because I am a raging anti-semite.)
ah yes, the important distinctions, undercutting jewish peoples desire not to be targeted as a people, that "though" is every antisemites wet dream, it's encompasses and undermines all argument
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/are-jews-a-race/
The short answer is no — Jews are not a race.
Funny hearing a Brit complain about another race's lack of generosity towards others. Especially since he helped the colonialist Empire to win a war
Ha, "these buggered imperialists, old boy!" exclaimed Nigel, pulling taut his waistcoat.
Wow you've really brought into the racist mindset and amplified it to genuinely insane levels, I'm actually impressed!
Please tell me you think you're left wing?
"There is a trait in the Jewish character that does provoke animosity, maybe it’s a kind of lack of generosity towards non-Jews.
Taken out of context, this is literally anti-semitism though, not racism. Thereby maybe not the best quote to underline the post title.
It's pretty anti-semitic in context too.
Do you mean you don't find anti-Semitism a form of racism?
Do you mean you don’t find anti-Semitism a form of racism?
To be fair, that's a difficult question because the forms of anti-semitism changed a lot over the course of recent and not-so-recent history.
By definition, semitic people are not just jewish people, and indeed, "semitic" describes an ethnicity, and by that, anti-semitism would also be racism.
However, many contemporary forms of anti-semitism are exclusively directed at jewish people, at which point they typically occur in people who are often also quite racist shitbags, but their anti-semitism in and of itself is not racist, because they direct their hatred at everything that is jewish, and for example the conspiracy theories surrounding jewish influence in the world have nothing to do with ethnicity, and all with religion.
As I learned it, one of the main historical factors contributing to this (and to anti-semitism) is that jewish people were not forbidden by religion from taking interest on money loans (from non-jews), whereas christians were. All the while in medieval times some other jobs were forbidden to them. So naturally there was an overrepresentation of jewish people in the emerging finance sector, and for the simple mind it is convenient to hate on people who you owe money to. And this form of anti-semitism I see as absolutely unrelated to racism.
PS: I intentionally write "jewish" and "christian" in lowercase because all religions suck donkey balls and while they can be tolerated, they deserve no special emphasis.