He's a lawless, fascist murderer.
He's a lawless, fascist murderer.
after St. Louis police unions instructed officers to publicly display The Punisher's insignia (the mark of a lawless, fascist murderer) the comic book community was quick to point out the stupidity, and the frankly horrifying message sent by supposed peace officers endorsing a maniac. So it's a good thing The Punisher personally confirms he hates cops who see him as a friend… making every cop who "wears his mark" or calls themselves a "fan" look like shameful fool in the process.
-- Andrew Dyce, The Punisher Confirms: He HATES Cops Who Support Him
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Is he fascist?
I don't read a lot of punisher comics.
To be perfectly clear about my experience with this character, I have watched the thomas jane punisher movie, which is a straight up vengeance movie.
But I never got the impression the punisher was fascist.
He doesn't seem like a pro-dictatorship kind of guy.
Is he, in the comics?
Did one of us misread? Title says fascist murderer like I took it as he kills them.
Grammar is funny that way it could be interpreted your way or it could be interpreted as "fascist who murders"
English is pretty amazing. You can say two (or more) different things with just two words.
I would guess you misread that, it seems like a grammatically unlikely interpretation given the context.
In the article, the phrase is describing the punisher in light of the police worship of a " lawless, fascist murderer", so I would expect both of those adjectives to be referring to the punisher.
And I don't think the punisher is known for killing fascists either, although I'm willing to defer to someone who has read any of the comics.
No he's not. The point is that cops wearing his symbol are fucking idiots. The punisher is a lawless vigilante who hates cops. Cops - an organization created to enforce laws - have no business wearing the symbol of a lawless vigilante, and they're stupid idiots for wearing the symbol of one that hates their whole organization.
He doesn't hate cops. He fully buys the thin blue line bullcrap for "the good ones."
He hates cops that would try to do what he does.
Read Punisher: Max. They did, I think. Works with and likes cops in that one. Very fascist tone.
No doubt cops idolizing the punisher are fascists and idiots, i just think it's a strikingly prominent, inaccurate title and focus for the article.
Well I think the issue is that you equate fascism with pro dictatorship stuff, people being seen as exceptional and above the law and shouldn't be questioned are part of fascism, look at the adoration Trump gets despite his crimes, look how ready they are to excuse it and look at him like a savior that will fix it all, does that not feel similar to how superheroes are portrayed?
I am using the definition of fascism, yes, to point out that the punisher does not fit that definition.
Your connection between Trump and the punisher is untenable; Trump is an immature wannabe dictator starving for attention living in a self-created world of illusions, deliberately and vocally ignoring the practical realities around him, and paying others to keep him in power as long as possible.
The punisher is a solo vigilante quietly skulking around in the shadows whose main purpose is revenge for his family with no interest in becoming a leader or even a part of society. He takes matters into his own hands, literally.
The video you posted has a pretty strong "i'm 14 and this is deep" vibe, it's a narrow conclusion-driven critique of extremely limited facets of a few pg-13 movie characters.
Superman was created by two Jewish teens who eventually used the hero to tell stories about fighting specifically fascism, and real world terrors like mine collapses.
None of those heroes want to be a leader, they all have special hideaway places that they self-inter themselves so that they won't become some sort of leader that they know they shouldn't be.
The video isn't a valid critique of any of those heroes. Culturally insensitive American movies making Americans look good or special as the heroes isn't exactly a new thing or particular to superheroes. Brendan Fraser did it in the mummy. Most movies with a hero from any country do that.
What does it matter who created superman? Or what he did in the past when talking about his specific portrayal in Man of Steel.
And you still keep talking about wanting to be a dictator as it being a core facet of being a fascist, it isn't
Punisher isn't fascist but he certainly acts in a way and does things that Fascists like and want to do, hence why he is a such a symbol for the thin blue line cop crowd.
Because the creators determined who the character would be and how people would portray him for so far 80 years, in stark contrast to a very brief portrayal by a very small team.
It's irresponsible to draw a character conclusion from such a limited sample.
And while agree that punisher is not fascist, I disagree that he does things fascists want to do and acts in a way fascists like to act.
He's a symbol simply because of his violence. Cops have a license to bully and use violence, and while the punisher does not, police officers can't imagine a world where you don't have a license to commit those kind of crimes, and so they falsely empathize with the punisher.
Mate you are weirdly defensive, no one is drawing character conclusions about Superman the video is specifically about modern day portrayals of superheroes he makes it clear like multiple times.
The punisher self appoints himself as judge jury and executioner that is very much fascistic, maybe you are not exactly clear of what fascism is after all.
In my opinion Cops like the Punisher because they see themselves as above others (the core tenet of fascism) as enforcers of the law who sometimes have to go beyond what's allowed to ensure safety of others and a lot of them have racial biases to put it mildly making them more than just fascist adjacent.
Now since you are only familiar with the Thomas Jane version that's just a revenge story as you yourself said, I'd recommend checking out Daredevil, In season 2 Punisher comes in and then there is an excellent Punisher standalone series on Netflix, where the first season is better than the second.
Now since they want the character to be likeable he does stuff like fucking up a pedophile because well who is gonna have an issue with that. But that really is just a few steps away from punsihing black and other minority criminals which is what cops see themselves doing.
I'm defensive specifically about the points we're talking about, and yes, people are drawing specifically historically and culturally incorrect character conclusions about Superman as explained in that simplistic video.
There isn't anything weird about mentioning the specific examples that refute llogical supplemental materials that draw incorrect conclusions about the personality of certain characters.
I do agree that it seems like you don't understand what fascism is, because you keep describing vigilanteism as if it is the same thing as fascism, while vigilanteism is almost diametrically opposed to fascism.
Fascism is the employment of a governmental body to enact a singular governmental perspective within which no participant may disagree, legally, societally, or civilly.
The punisher is a lone vigilante uninterested in controlling anything, singularly focused on revenge for specific injustices.
It's just not the same thing.
Vigilantism definitely shares traits with fascism.
Fascism is the employment of a governmental body to enact a singular governmental perspective within which no participant may disagree, legally, societally, or civilly.
I mean that's just hilariously wrong, it implies there are is no fascism if the government isn't fascist.
What you described is totalitarianism
a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state.
Which is an aspect of fascism but not the definition.
Here this guy does a good job of describing white fascism:
It is absolutely the definition.
You're linking a subjective, loosely interpreted editorial of what racist fascim could present as, given 22 minutes to slog along another conclusion-driven narrative (which I watched, again), while I am providing a synopsis of the actual definition:
"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"
Fascism is a governmental body taking control of society, disallowing individual thought and behavior.
As I said.
The punisher is uninterested in running an autocratic government that controls other people via oppression.
That makes him, definitively, not a fascist.
Wasn't his whole thing that he takes the extra steps to stop people from ever doing bad things again? I've also not read punisher though.
Yeah but the extra steps are just shooting them in the face or snapping their necks.
Can't commit a crime if your face was eaten by piranhas
That's what I meant by extra steps tbh
Cool, then I'll just say yes and we can both pretend we know what we're talking about hahaha.
Depends on the writer. Sometimes he's a contractor for the American government, he's been a Frankenstein and an Iron Man, sometimes an outright fascist, sometimes killing fascists.
Depends which comics. People say it's ironic cops use the Punisher skull, they say the character hates cops. These people never read Punisher: MAX. It's not ironic, it's right on brand. Plus people that read it in like 2008 are sometimes 30 year old cops now.
Oh, thank you for this, I was waiting for someone who knew anything about the comics to chime in. I'm going to check that out immediately.