The only way we lose is if we stand divided.
The only way we lose is if we stand divided.
PS.
I would for vote Kamala. I would vote for a cactus with sunglasses if it had the Democratic nomination. You would do yourself well to consider anything that is weaking the resolve of the anti-trump sentiment straight poison to your brain. We have only one job this novemeber and that is to stop trump. The Supreme Court has given him the status of king. Quit acting like your vote is sacred and start realizing your vote is your final cry before your rights are forfeited.
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It's not about that. It's about sleep walking into fascism. Before the debate it was metaphorical. If you keep voting for the lesser evil you still get evil. It just takes longer.
Now we're being asked to vote for someone who clearly cannot handle the duties of the office and is nothing more than a figurehead. Rubber stamping this does not protect democracy. It proves they can manufacture consent to put whoever they want in that office and you guys will keep pulling that lever thinking, "it could be worse".
and is nothing more than a figurehead
Fine by me.
Come November, I will not be voting for an old guy named Biden. I will be voting for the Biden administration, an administration that rejoined the Paris climate accords, has made progress wrt medical debt, has seen decreasing levels of uninsured Americans, and made progress on myriad other issues. Because the alternative is...well, you know.
I am not voting for my ideal candidate, or my ideal administration, but that's because 1) I'm not an accelerationist, and 2) I'm smart enough to know how this works given our deeply flawed voting system.
I'm not sure you can really have it both ways --- the only alternatives for someone who doesn't want Trump but won't vote for Biden that I see are accelerationism, or complete and utter naivety...which is functionally equivalent to accelerationism.
I don't agree that those are the only avenues left. Biden is vulnerable to a replacement campaign now. We can sidestep the entire thing. Get a good admin and a president strong enough to fight the inevitable reactionary shit from red states.
Ok so let's have Trump instead?
No, thanks. Vote for Biden so that we don't have to repeat the fallout of 2016.
Vote for anyone but Biden, Trump, and RFK.
We aren't too close to November to replace him.
Would you vote for Harris? Newsom?
Yeah. Probably.
If that's true, what are the policy differences that qualifies them in you mind, vs Biden?
Well Harris has been critical of Israel, and that may have just been part of a communications strategy but it's all we have to go for now. Other than that she's far less likely to drop dead in the next 4 years and doesn't have bouts of senility that can occur at the worst times. (Let's be real, that debate hasn't been properly explained, the white house is holding on to jet lag from a trip two weeks before the debate.) The pro corporate shit isn't likely to change. And that's something we'll have to keep working on.
Newsom is the same. He hasn't been directly critical of Israel but he has reached out to support the Palestinian community in California. Which is probably more important and real to his position as governor. But he's a center dem just like Harris. And he's also not likely to drop dead.
Both candidates will inherit many of Biden's cabinet and staff and continue his policies. Newsom might take a lighter touch with immigration, (he'd have to frame it as trimming Biden's EO to protect it from the courts), but other than that I don't expect huge differences. Even differences I'd like to see.
Very reasonable expectations.
Maybe I'm not understanding your Biden position, then. It sounded like you refused to vote for Biden if he's the nominee.
But you seem to be OK with his policies, minus his handling of Isreal. But you also acknowledge that little is likely to change under the other frontrunners, besides maybe being a little more sympathetic towards Gazians.
And given that you also expect him to drop dead or become mentally incapacitated in the next 4 years, it seems like Harris taking the baton is exactly what you want.
So why is a Biden vote completely unreasonable to you? Or is that not your position?
His age, health, and Israel position. He hasn't just supported Israel, he's completely blocked any attempts to apply US laws about human rights and directly parrots IDF propaganda our own intelligence community debunks. His new immigration policy came after that started but is just as disqualifying. He is trying to deny asylum in direct contravention of our laws. It was one thing when everyone thought he was screwing with the Republicans, but then he just ordered it to happen. Which is something we criticized about Trump too.
I'm not as close to the immigration issue, but my understanding that his first choice, expanding funding to handle the massive backlog of asylum apps, was dead on arrival because the Republican controlled congress refused to play ball. So he executive ordered a shitty bandaid to reduce the number of asylum applications in an overwhelmed system.
I.E., no good solution was available to him because of Republican regressives blocking him, so he just did the best he could with an executive order.
Seems odd to blame him for that instead of the GOP.
You comments on Isreal are on point, and I don't think many here disagree. But at the same time, Trump has explicitly said he will do much worse. So I don't understand the refusal to vote for Biden if he's the nominee come election time. Because if you're a single issue voter, the other candidate is much worse.
Biden could have just not. He didn't have to write that EO. That status quo wasn't great but it was better than fast deporting asylees.
As far as Israel, it's all connected. If he's winning to participate in those human rights abuses then he's willing to do so here too. And the immigration EO is proof of that. Not voting for war criminals is an act of self defense.
The risk of doing nothing becomes the greatest risk of all. It absolutely could be worse, we all lived through 4 years of Trump (and the aftermath re:Supreme Court appointments). We don't need hypotheticals here, there's a clear comparison between 4 years of Trump and 4 years of Biden, and not voting out of principal doesn't stop anything.
In full transparency, I'm not voting for Biden in November because of the Palestinian Genocide and because I believe he's already ineffective at protecting LGBTQ rights in red states. But I'm not here to tell you not to vote for him in November. I should have been more clear above. We have the momentum to replace him and vote for someone that isn't just a figurehead. Biden and his allies are using the "vote blue no matter who" rhetoric as a club to stop people from talking about replacing him on the ticket. We can cross that bridge on August 23rd though, the day after the convention. Right now we need to fully and faithfully have the conversation about replacing him.
After November we need to better organize to prevent the mega donor class from steering us into a full Oligarchy. Something that's on the plate for both old guys.
I hate to break it to you but if it's Biden & Trump in November, regarding Palestinian Genocide and LGBTQ rights, Trump will absolutely be worse than Biden, so not voting for Biden will not change anything and just make things worse.
So this is an interesting issue. Either state's rights are so strong that Blue States can protect LGBTQ people as hard as Red States have been persecuting them or Biden is willfully letting Red States persecute LGBTQ people.
So no it's not going to be worse. It's going to be the same as it ever was in either case. And as for the Palestinians, my heart goes out to them but my vote isn't about what happens on the ground there. It's about the permissive morality of contributing to it. If we're willing to contribute to it there, then we're willing to contribute to it here. And you can see it shaping up in rhetoric against marginalized people by politicians from both parties. They disagree about LGBTQ people because that's a flashy issue they can use. The second you're talking about homeless people and immigrants the rhetoric converges.
We just approved forcing homeless people into camps, destroying all of their property, and using them as forced labor if they resist. Immigrants aren't far behind, we're on to trying to deny them asylum because they showed on the wrong day and return them to the hands of cartels in Northern Mexico. Something that's actually illegal according to our laws and international treaties we've signed. So now there's a displaced person problem on our border and in history that translates to forced labor. If you have questions about that you should read up on refugee camps where western volunteer doctors learn not to ask too many questions. The dynamic works whether or not it's officially declared a refugee camp.
I think all of these points really come down to the Supreme Court makeup, which got fucked under Trump. Trump was able to nominate 3 justices, which created the super majority we have now.
So no it’s not going to be worse. It’s going to be the same as it ever was in either case.
They have indicated that they want to undo previous decisions which codified gay rights. This isn't a red state/blue state issue, it will affect the whole country.
We just approved forcing homeless people into camps
The same court made the decision about making homelessness illegal. The most direct way to stop these horrible decisions from being made will be to support the impeachment of the corrupt justices, and ensure that we have a president who will nominate justices who aren't corrupt and taking away our rights.
Okay I need you to understand this. The Red States have been ignoring the old Supreme Court rulings. They do not care. and the Homeless laws I'm talking about were passed by Democrats, in contravention of old Supreme Court rulings.
This is not a SCOTUS issue. They're the scapegoat on these issues and the myth that there would be substantive change if we just kept Biden in office.
Either States are powerful enough to ignore the federal government, or they aren't. And the implications of that are not good for Biden either way. Because he's either powerless, in which case so would Trump be, or he's willfully allowing this, in which case the worst case scenario is already playing out.
The Red States have been ignoring the old Supreme Court rulings.
Citation needed. Regardless if states follow the rulings, the supreme court can shift the views of the nation. After 2015 same sex marriage ruling, there was much higher support for same sex marriage, with noticable large increases with Republicans corresponding to the Supreme Court ruling:
From the Article from 2017:
For the first time, a majority of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents do not oppose allowing gays and lesbians to marry legally.
To your other point:
myth that there would be substantive change if we just kept Biden in office.
When Biden assumed office, we were in the middle of a global pandemic, still social distancing because there were no vaccines, and we're having a 9/11 worth of American deaths every day. Maybe returning to normal life wasn't substantive for you, but there have been huge changes over the last 3.5 years of the Biden presidency.
Because he's either powerless, in which case so would Trump be, or he's willfully allowing this, in which case the worst case scenario is already playing out.
In this situation, do you think Trump would be willingly allowing atrocities or actively driving and enabling them? A Trump presidency would clearly be the worst case scenario here.
EDIT: just formatting
Yes, you can manufacture consent. That was obvious. What will you do about it? The question being asked isn't, "how do we rebuild america." It is what do we do in novemeber. Any thing else is purposeful obsfucation.
Rebuild it... Like how it was in which year?
Why rebuild it like it was in the past?
Exactly
I'm not the guy above but I like to answer that with "Giving everyone the rights and benefits white men enjoyed in the 1960's."
So then we're building something new, not restoring to a previous state.
Then let's get the hammers and nails out. New or old it doesn't matter.
Short term, pressure for replacing Biden. November, vote if you can stomach it. Thereafter, get involved with your state party. March. If you're in a red state then you have a unique position of running on more progressive things that are actually people oriented. That's what led to Democrats taking state wide offices in Arizona. You aren't beholden to the DNC's mega donors.
If you're in a blue state plan to help primary an establishment Democrat.
Don't shirk away because you can't do it yourself, that's an unrealistic expectation. Organize your friends, your coworkers, your commuter bus, etc.
Nothing in politics is "over" if you can get a critical mass of people to agree to change things. And it's really the only way off this manufactured consent treadmill for corporate power and profits we've been on for the last 40 years.
Edit to add- Confining the question to November is a logical fallacy. We aren't that close to the election that we can do nothing but vote. So that's pretty much just another attempt to get people to turn their brain off, vote, and then sit around waiting for the next thing their told to do. If we don't "activate" and start acting independently of big money then we aren't going to have a democracy come 2028, no matter which person is elected now. Biden is a vote for an Authoritarian Oligarchy. Which isn't "Fascism" in a technical sense, but it's not going to feel much different for you and me.
Ah yes a figure head of the party who did all this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WhatBidenHasDone/comments/1abyvpa/the_complete_list_what_biden_has_done/
Is just as bad as the figure head of a fascist, xenophobic, racist, authoritarian, nationalist, religious zealot party because they are both figureheads. You're right.
I'm not even going to start with a list put together by his base. The news can't put one together that doesn't get ripped to shreds once you actually look at it. I doubt his base has put together anything like a list that says what the policies actually do. And no the title of the bill or the PR elevator pitch has no relation to what it actually does. For example he actually severely cut EV subsidies and you all fell on your knees to thank him for it.
Give his base a little more credit than that. They aren't dumb enough to list the inflation reduction act, they call it environmental legislation.
Literally your best argument against this NOT ALL OF THOSE ARE REAL BECAUSE HIS SUPPORTERS COMPILED IT SO IMMA VOTE FOR A FACIST RACIST
You're fucking wild bro
I never said I was going to vote for Trump.
If your not voting, voting 3rd party, or voting for Trump ....any of those is a vote for Trump in America's presidential election.
Also your name is maggoty so...
And let's not get distracted from the main point by straw manning here. Your argument is ridiculous.
No. No they aren't. The only vote for Trump is an actual vote for Trump. Casting anyone who doesn't support you as an other who must support the bad guy was bullshit when Bush did it and it's bullshit now.
No it isn't. It's literally math and logic deduction. It's the bullshit two party system's failings.
Because you only have 2 options who are going to pull enough votes to win, throwing your vote to a 3rd party is taking a vote from biden. not voting is taking a vote from biden. all of that is equal to a vote for Trump.
You’re right, and I’m getting real sick of the “shut up and fall in line” demand from democrats.
In this current system, EVERY election now will always be “the most important one ever”, with fascism at the front door and our democracy being at stake.
When the options are between (insert every terrible adjective that accurately describes him here) Trump, and ‘guy with obvious mental decline’ Biden, the blame doesn’t lie with the voter. If Joe Biden can’t earn people’s votes, the responsibility lies with Joe Biden and the Democrat establishment.
There are millions of leftist voters in this country who are being ignored by the two parties, and the democrats are hostile toward them and don’t want to move left to gain their votes. The leftist voters then get villainized by dems for seeking out a third party that better aligns with their values. “How dare you not fall in line! A vote for a third party is a vote for Trump!” No, it’s not. It’s exercising what little democracy we have left. The only vote for trump is an actual vote for trump.
The Democrat establishment simply doesn’t offer enough to anyone left of them. I don’t want the status quo; the status quo sucks. It’s a deregulated capitalist hellscape full of cruelty, slavery, wealth inequality, and planetary disaster.
I wish the dems could step back and realize what they are advocating for. The best and only choice for president is currently an 81-year-old man dealing with cognitive decline?! No, that’s not okay! That is not acceptable!
I dont know how to explain this to you, but appealing to leftists would cost alot more moderates than the other way around
That’s why we’re voting for the administration, not the man. And we’re voting AGAINST Trump, not FOR Biden.
But you tell yourself whatever it is that makes you feel good about turning your back on those who’s lives are going to essentially be made illegal. Because beneath it all- knowing what’s at stake, and choosing not to vote anyway, is admitting that none of the shit you’re “concerned” about really matters.
Well they're already being made illegal, and all of the homeless people are going to be made illegal too. Don't be surprised when they start going into camps together, no matter whose president. Because Biden isn't fighting for them. He's going tooth and nail to make sure GM isn't pressured by actual competition and to make sure Landlords can still kill you for rent. But LGBTQ rights? shit, don't make me laugh.
At any rate my comments here are about replacing him so we have a chance. Because Biden is losing this election. The people who actually elect the president are responding to pollsters and they're telling everyone they won't vote for Biden. It doesn't matter if every democrat in every other state turns out. If they don't get the 100,000 or so undecided people in swing states, it's over. And we have a chance to avoid that.
It’s always interesting to see what you’ll tell yourself as an excuse. Whatever makes you sleep better at night man.
The rest of us just see you not giving a shit.
I don't look forward to telling you that you were warned. But if you and the rest of the Biden club keep putting your heads in the sand we're getting a 2016 repeat.
I’m sure it won’t be because of all the people not voting. But sure…. Blame voters. That’s makes total sense!
Oh it's not just the voters that won't even think about a replacement. It's the dem leadership who put us into this position. But if you guys had even the smallest amount of courage to tell the dem leadership you won't vote for Biden, he'd be gone tomorrow.
As long as it’s not your fault, right?
I'm not one of the lucky 100,000.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
nothing more than a figurehead.
That figurehead happens to be surrounded by people who aren't fascists and support policy that I mostly agree with, so I guess I'll take my chances with them.
Sure, if you agree with the policies of the Oligarchy then who am I to stop you?
You're already retired though right? Because if you aren't then I wouldn't plan on them allowing you to ever do so.
I guess if that's what you think is the oligarchy, than I suppose I do. And no, I am not retired, but I would say I am fairly successful with decent savings and retirement set aside.