Pinging @[email protected], who left a lengthy critique of the video which, while ultimately wrong, was at least more reasonable than some of the dumb takes that have been left up in this thread by other users.
The issue with motornormativity is the notion that penalising people who choose modes of transport other than car in precisely the same way as cars are penalised without regard for the actual level of risk involved is insane. Hundreds of people die in this country every year as a result of cars. Guess how many die because of cyclists? Going 10 km/h over the speed limit in a car is a much, much greater danger to the public than going 10 km/h over the speed limit on a bike.
This is even greater when the speed limit itself is poorly thought-out. We allow cars to drive past schools full of 6 year-olds at 4 times the speed we allow cyclists to ride the Kurilpa Bridge. When the Minister for Transport himself, escorting a foreign dignitary, shares himself going an average of 6 km/h over the speed limit on the bridge, it's a pretty solid indication that the speed limit here is inappropriate. As the video itself said, the normal minimum speed you'd expect a bike to be doing on a shared path is about 16 km/h, and going under 11 km/h is—according to the government's own recommendations—unstable and risky.
Something the video didn't quite go in to as explicitly, but hinted at in a way that was very clear for those already aware, is how the speed limit changes are indicative of the hefty car-brain of our current government. This speed limit was changed at some point after November 2021, without any consultation or public information. That never happens with roads. Even a modest change reducing a speed limit on a residential street from 50 to 40 undergoes heavy review and is unlikely to happen if even a small vocal minority opposes it. That's motornormativity in action.
What's more, this speed limit change (and frankly, even the old speed limit itself) was made completely without evidence. There have been no pedestrian injuries on this bridge in the last 20 years. Usually, we try to make policy based on evidence. Or if we don't, that's certainly what we should be aspiring to. The evidence here tells us: this is not necessary. If there's an area where cyclists are frequently endangering pedestrians, first of all: we already have rules in place to enforce that, without going to unreasonable speed limits. But second, maybe, if there were evidence suggesting it would actually help, we could consider putting a speed limit in place in that location. The simple fact is: cyclists aren't expected to have speedometers, so trying to enforce speed limits against them is ridiculous.
And, if you were going to enforce it, the fine should not be the same as it is for drivers. Because the amount of damage they're likely to cause is orders of magnitude less.
I took down my comment as I kept on reading more articles after I posted it and saw there was more to it than just this video and individuals comments and felt my comment was pretty misinformed. Glad you took the time to respond as again I had never seen the term motonormativity before and was keen to learn more.
Yeah for sure, it's a term that's fairly new to me too. I probably first heard it earlier this year. I actually thought your comment was a really respectful one, even if I disagreed with it.
Another term you might come across is "car-brain". This term is basically synonymous with motornormativity, though perhaps somewhat more focusing on how motornormativity infects individuals, and less so on its systemic problems.
i dont fully agree with the points made, but i do think there are edge cases where rules that apply to cars dont make sense for cyclists, probably the main one that comes to mind is Stop signs and coming to a complete stop. I dont think that is a rule that makes sense for bikes (and can be less safe in some cases) but where rules apply, i dont see why fines should be any different
i dont see why fines should be any different
Very simple. A driver going 10 km/h over the speed limit has a far higher chance of causing far more damage than a cyclist does.
sure, but then we have to do everything by weight class (like that chart i think it was you that posted?) be the same for motorbikes, trucks etc.
Also need to consider its not just about the potential direct damage that can be caused, a cyclist breaking certain rules could endanger other drivers indirectly such as blowing through a stop sign causing breaking which could lead to an accident caused by a vehicle etc. I say all these things as a cyclist by the way (username checks out?)
edit: by the way the situation mentioned on that bridge is definitly a strange one and really needs some sort of change there
He hasn't really convinced me that cyclists shouldn't be fined for breaking the law the same as drivers. He has however convinced me that the speed limit on that bridge is laughably too low.
He hasn’t really convinced me that cyclists shouldn’t be fined for breaking the law the same as drivers
Yeah the video didn't really focus as much on that point as it probably should have to earn its title. It made a few points in that regard, but the focus was more on that specific speed limit.
But I would ask, very simply: why should the punishment be the same? That's really the most relevant way of framing it, because that's the positive claim being made, and you can't really prove a negative other than to suggest that there's no evidence in favour of the positive. (I can't prove "there's no yeti", but I can say "well there's no evidence on which to justify believing in a yeti.") It shouldn't be on cycling advocates to justify why the punishment should be less, but on the car-brained to explain why they should be the same.
So why should the punishment be the same? The risk is drastically less, as evidenced by the crash rates and crash severity. So what is it?
Please do not post comments that do not engage with the arguments raised in the video. Not just it's clickbait-y title. Further low-effort responses will be removed
I don't necessarily think the title was click-baity, to be honest. It's a pretty honest assessment of the content of the video.
It's a bit inflammatory perhaps, but only because the facts are so far out of step with the beliefs of the car-brained way most Australians have been brought up to think.
That aside, thanks for trying to keep the tone here better. Some of the low-effort comments here were quite disappointing to read.
The annoying thing is the Lemmy API has been changed to not return the child comments of a removed comment. It's really annoying because sometimes (like this) I get in too late and there's a comment that should be removed but there's a good discussion following it (rarely with the original commenter). I'll create an issue at some point unless they've already fixed it
It always amuses me when people downvote moderator warnings. I'll take it to mean that you don't want civil and respectful discussions to occur and just want to engage in some flame war. If you would like to see some changes, feel free to let me know
Seems to be a case of low speed limits are good for other people but not him, which I do find a little amusing. Overly low speed limits are a bugbear of mine so I do sympathise with the feeling but since he's a 'huge advocate' for 30km/h zones in a car it's pretty ironic. After all the same reasons for 30km/h zones (e.g. people might be on the road and slower moving vehicles means less risk of injury) do also apply to riding a bike over a busy bridge where there's basically guaranteed to be people in the way. I do like the mention of bicycles being designed to travel at higher speeds considering that's a common sentiment for those of us in cars and motorbikes as well.
I kind of like the idea of reducing fines based on mass though, us motorbike riders would support that...
Seems to be a case of low speed limits are good for other people but not him
Umm, did we watch the same video? He literally spends a significant amount of time pointing out that the government's own guidelines explain why the speed limits are inappropriate. Their data says going under 11 km/h can be unstable, and that the comfortable minimum speed should be 16 km/h. And their own guidelines say that enforcement of speed limits is not a viable option.
What I found amusing was the bringing up of these ideas:
- Breaking the speed limit is different to exceeding a safe speed for the conditions.
- My self assessment of a particular area and my skill limit indicates there should be a higher speed limit.
- My vehicle is designed to operate safely at higher speeds than the limit.
- My vehicle is designed in a way that makes sticking to the lowest speed limits awkward.
- Police are fining people huge amounts of money for exceeding a speed limit myself and many others think is too low.
These are all very familiar to me as a driver and motorbike rider so that's where the irony comes in - despite being a proponent of low speed limits he's complaining about a low speed limit using similar arguments as everyone else now it affects him.
For what it's worth I agree with him that the speed limit there is too low (as it is on many roads), but I think the better response should be to raise it to something sensible (for what is apparently a busy shared path 20km/h seems a more reasonable limit) rather than either removing the limits or saying you can't fine riders for exceeding them.
