let's discuss "karma"
let's discuss "karma"
I am curious to hear opinions on the concept of user karma in general.
Do people miss it?
Are we better off without it?
From a technicial perspective, I don't see why it couldn't be implemented. I understand Lemmy doesn't track this explicitly. However, using a users post and comment history you could come to a number pretty easily, right? I was considering making a toy app that would take a user and instance and spit out a karma score for post and comments, what would stop others from doing the same?
Will it be inevitably pulled into existence by Lemmy users as we mature the platform?
I don't think that the concept of Karma should be implemented in the Fediverse. At least not, like we know it from Reddit.
Reddit's Karma was handled like a currency, and in order to obtain such, the overall-quality of the content declined as a result of Karma-farming.
In my opinion, the fediverse feels so new, fresh and exciting, because there is no such thing as Karma. No barrier that hinders one to post someting, because a certian count of Karma - or Lemmy-Schmeckle, call it as you want - would be needed to post something. Yet.
I personally think karma is mostly harmless, much like the downvote. In practice it's the way it's used that kinda spoils it for everyone.
There is a kind of subtle technical problem with karma, which is (technical) problem of trust. I haven't looked at the Lemmy spec, much less the source, but decentralized systems always have an issue of, who can you trust?
Let's say I want to have a user account with inflated karma for some reason. I can spin up an instance and simply assert what my karma is—and if I need to, I can create a bunch of fake accounts on my instance and create a bunch of fake posts and comments and assign fake karma scores to them, so that it can be audited.
Now if other instance owners get wise to what I'm up to, they can defederate me. But this creates a few immediate problems, including the problem of adding more administrative load to instance owners generally. The bigger problem is the witch hunting that could ensue, if a culture of karma were to develop as it has on Reddit.
That's such a good point. There's probably ways to get around that issue, but I take this as a sign we don't need karma here
That is fascinating, I never considered that.
Yeah, it's like the old saying: "on the internet, no one knows you're a dog." Some of the spyware-driven networks create a layer of verification by removing privacy, which we don't want, but at least non-private networks make it easier to spot dogs.
I hated the karma system. It led to people doing a whole bunch of stupid one-liners like out of a marvel movie and things like cake day posts.
Edit:spelling
I feel like it led to a lot of toxicity I'd like to avoid here
...is it bad that I actually liked reading one-liners and "happy cake day" comments? _;;;; TBF it's been a while since I watched a Marvel movie, so I don't know if the ones you hated are the ones I liked. I suppose you must be right that a lot of people just said things for karma, but I always assumed they were saying it for the lulz. Stupid one-liners seemed to be the whole point of certain subs, presumably because at least some of the people there enjoyed them.
A system to boil down the "not-shittiness" to a single value isn't the worst idea.
Currently, it's really hard to distinguish an average user and a bona fide asshole and a bot account.
Now, if the reddit style Karma is the right tool, I'm not sure.
I feel like karma is mildly useful to identify potentially disruptive users, but it's so easy to abuse it that it isn't worth the trouble:
- you can farm karma posting low-effort but still generally liked content (I did this all the time in another site; it's damn easy). That negates any potential usage of karma to identify disruptive users.
- moderators start using karma as a low-hanging fruit way to discourage newbies from their communities.
- once you gamify the system, some people will game the game. You get for example mods removing content from users, just to repost it themselves for karma.
- accounts with a lot of karma become a commodity.
It's theoretically possible that someone creates an add-on that tracks your karma. That's fine - as long as it doesn't become the default experience, its impact on the overall Lemmyverse environment would be almost nothing.
On your first point, I think that's similar to a captcha. Captchas obviously don't stop all bots. But they stop the vast majority. The fact that you can get cheap karma doesn't negate the fact that it can still serve as a filter.
But I agree on the second point. I think karma shouldn't be a hard barrier to contributing somewhere. It should instead be a factor in anti spam measures. Eg, automation can be more suspicious of comments from people with no karma and we can do stuff like require manual approval for really questionable comments.
IMO, the absence of karma has little impact on the third point. I think many people who want karma aren't merely trying to get a big number on their profile. They want attention in general. They want things they post to get a ton of replies and lots of votes so it'll be seen.
I think that it's a weak filter and, more importantly: botting is an instance-wide issue, so it needs to be addressed by the admins, not by the mods. The mods were only doing it "in certain site" because the admins are outright incompetent and malicious.
Fair point on the third one. Thinking about it this way, yeah the impact should be small.
I think these are the 5 things we can all agree to never add in Lemmy:
- Restrictions on posting based on Karma.
Abusive powermods once claimed they allowed people to post on subreddits but they completely lied and made hidden rules on Automod. This should never be allowed again. Just so we are clear, it’s both thread posting and commenting that abuse mods removed.
- Karma power
We know Reddit has done something to allow people with unrealistic karma to get special things. I say that should not be allowed. It creates bot accounts and black markets.
- No fake Karma
I know some Lemmy severs will try to cheat and make fake Karma numbers. Reddit made everyone believe your Karma had validity. Instead we should be allowed to know information on Karma. Something like a name list or API account check for developers to verify accounts. Reddit never allows anyone to check Karma, it should be a thing in case of propaganda, sellouts, farming and more.
- Mods should not get Karma
Super simple problem, fixes the issue of mod stealing Karma for themselves and stops Automod Karma problems that people finds ways to beating it. Also, no theses mod accounts can’t be posted in other places, it stays in the community. New nicknames will be needed, it’s not the user account, it’s a mod nickname alias. Something like email where you have 2 accounts and only used business for business.
- Mods that are abusing their community should be kicked out.
The community by vote should kick out the mod, it should not be the admin or other members. The community who were in for 1 month or more. If things are crazy because of admin or mods then that will make people mad and leave the community. Just like Reddit because the fedverse is not Reddit anymore.
Abusive powermods once claimed they allowed people to post on subreddits but they completely lied and made hidden rules on Automod. This should never be allowed again.
What happened? I didnt really get the wording also did not know about this
Whatever stops karma farming looks good to me.
Karma power
We know Reddit has done something to allow people with unrealistic karma to get special things. I say that should not be allowed. It creates bot accounts and black markets.
Have they? I thought Karma was pretty much useless other then subreddits which required it to post.
I don't ever want it back. Even lot of users on Squabbles don't want it back.
I prefer if it wasn't there. Scoring people always felt very dystopian to me
I don't look forward to 'karma' being implemented as it is on snoosite in the #threadiverse. Namely, incentivising 'karma-farming' is something I'd like to leave behind.
I dont LOVE user karma bc then people karma farm and do gimmicky stuff tryna become popular and reddit famous to get a 'high score' (or ig it'd be kbin famous if that applied here) and i didnt like those posters that much bc it was like all their posts are gimmicky
Karma was a sytem used by bots and powermods, it's easily abusable and honestly doesn't really helps much (gatekeeped subs, but that's where bots and subs that were karmafarms/reposts became useful and abused).
I tried the thunder app for lemmy and was disappointed to see it showed a total "karma" number. I'd been enjoying not having a running total. I like seeing my comments and posts get appreciated but I see no need for it all to add up.
One of the things I liked about the fediverse was I was less likely to be told I'm farming karma. I just like posting things that I think will promote a discussion.
I don't want people to claim I'm trying inflate my imaginary internet number again.
I agree. It's the one thing that puts me off about Kbin. Socialising shouldn't be a popularity contest.
I never cared about someone's karma. I enjoy not even knowing mine, I guess. I guess the only reason I would want karma would be for hiding users with negative karma from conversations but...
- Since I'm all in for not having downvotes, this is a moot point
- Probably neonazis don't have negative karma because some people would still downvote them. So hiding users with negative karma would not help much
l liked reddit best before the points mattered.
meta-moderation is a questionable system at best (with more real research needed not admins playing with it like kids) however it works ok enough until the points matter, then they become thier own distorting effect and it starts eating itself.
the meta-mod system on reddit ate itself years ago, its why mods have so much power now.
I accumulated a good bit in a short time and didn’t care. If I was trying to decide if someone was a bot, a horrible person, or just clueless, I’d glance at post history. That seemed to work well. I assume you can do the same here, I just haven’t tried because I haven’t needed to. Yay for that.
On kbin there is "karma" although not really working correctly. Maybe make a karma and a bad karma. That will balance out the karma farmers, since it doen't matter that you harvested 20k plus, since.the 10k minus is shown as well. With one counter you would be 10k good karma.
This is an excellent idea, just show the sum of both upvotes and downvotes, best of both worlds.
Karma is only sometimes a measure of the overall quality of a poster.
Often (more often?) it's just a measure of how aggressively they've farmed it, which ironically sort of makes it an inverted measure of quality.
Personally, on Reddit, the only times I ever really noticed it was when somebody had wildly gigantic numbers, which often just led to me checking their profile, discovering that yes indeed - they did get those numbers by (re)posting an endless stream of pabulum - then blocking them.
The third thing it measures is how terminally online someone is. It builds up without any farming required.
I can't say I ever thought much about karma. I was on the site for long enough that I never had to worry about if I had enough, and I always judged other people on their comment history rather than their karma. It seems like people who did think about it mostly had negative experiences, which I think is typical when you're evaluating people with numbers, and especially when the numbers are public.
It's certainly not something I personally miss, and not something I consider particularly useful or important as part of an online forum. If other people really do want it, I'll go with the flow, but just as a matter of personal preference, I would say no. Whether or not it presents technical difficulties, implementation would take time and effort, and I am sure there are more important features or issues to work on right now.
I didn’t think it actually served a real purpose. The people who did like it were very obsessive.
I thought it was kind of fun. I just posted when I felt like it and had a "score" that tracked it.
That's what I find so sad, it is just good fun.
In my opinion karma is bullshit, honestly it seems stupid that to post in many subs I had to first have a certain level of karma earned in that specific sub as r/PetAdvice only commenting posts of others who can post, it is a vicious circle, and worst of all is that if it is a r/xAdvice is to ask something and leave, I do not want to waste a week of my life at least commenting idiocies to earn enough karma and to my post being ignored.
I feel like the only real use of it was to allow boards that really needed it a "Must have X karma to post" minimum to weed out bots, and after that there was no point to it.
What boards really needed it?
I know the hololive board needed it as an "official" subreddit, they would often get people trying to intentionally antagonize people, especially a few years back when they were getting bots from china constantly harassing them on reddit, twitter, and youtube anytime any of their talents tried to do anything.
It's not as bad now, but for subreddits like that, they'd much rather you build up some karma first somewhere like virtualyoutubers where those kinds of bots wouldn't bother posting to anyway, and any non-bots would more than likely get downvoted and not get karma if they were that kind of negative.
I like karma on individual posts and comments, but the practice of totaling it up for each user. More karma == better quality. It just means you use the platform a lot.
That being said, does the amount of karma for a comment look the same regardless of what instance you’re looking at it from? Like if comment from my lemmy.one profile on a post on a lemm.ee instance, will my comment’s karma be the same for accounts across those instances?
If the purpose of karma becomes a reputation required to post (like on Reddit) it could hinder peoplea ability to instantly interact with a community. It definitely was a problem for new users on Reddit.