Episode Discussion | Star Trek: Strange New Worlds | 2x02 "Ad Astra Per Aspera"
Episode Discussion | Star Trek: Strange New Worlds | 2x02 "Ad Astra Per Aspera"
Logline
Commander Una Chin-Riley faces court-martial along with possible imprisonment and dishonorable dismissal from Starfleet, and her defense is in the hands of a lawyer who’s also a childhood friend with whom she had a terrible falling out.
Written by Dana Horgan
Directed by Valerie Weiss
This was a fantastic episode. One thing I liked in particular was that they had an actual lawyer defend Una, and not just have Pike do it.
They kept the tradition alive by having a starship captain handle the prosecution, though.
But in contrast, this lawyer (Neera) won by mainly by being a good lawyer (albeit in a tv legal drama kind of way). Setting things on fire with the first witness to create a bunch of fog and doubt about the premise of the case, realising that other important regulations impinge on the case and setting up testimony to substantiate the effect of those regulations.
My memory of most other officer-lawyers is that their methods tend to focus more on the moral "issyew" (Picard's pronunciation of "issue" in Measure of a Man).
Oh yeah, an actual lawyer and one who was not assigned by Starfleet. Una was also spot on with her complaint that her original counsel was paid by those prosecuting her. 👏
What a beautiful episode. The message was great and it wasn't ambiguous enough for people to really misinterpret or miss it while still remaining an indirect allegory for current times. The allegory was clearly about either homosexuality or undocumented immigrants and I appreciate that people from either group can likely relate to this episode. As a gay guy I have to say I definitely did.
Also, the scene with Spock's "outburst" was hilarious and I loved seeing the (on the surface) emotionless Spock once again.
Overall I loved the episode and I'm very glad to see one I love after personally disliking the previous one.
The allegory was trans people. Hence all the talk of needing to 'pass' to be accepted and the wonderful lil touch of Unas child cast being the colours of the Trans flag
Ah, I'd missed that detail. I was on the fence about whether or not it was a trans allegory because it didn't initially feel like there were as many similarities in her story to being trans as there was to homosexuality and being an undocumented immigrant but upon further consideration I have to agree. Though it does seem to me like it is also about those other groups I mentioned. I suppose it's a bit of a catch-all (which worked great).
It is not unlikely that this is the allegory they had in mind primarily, but so much of the bigotry and hatred depicted applied to gays, blacks, jews, women and probably more groups, too.
We're rhyming history, every generation we're trying to overcome prejudice, oppression and hatred against a new minority, only for some to conjure up a new distinguishing feature to define a minroty to be ostracized. It feels like treading water sometimes, can't we just cut through the bullshit in one go, but no, we have to go through all the steps, while some new group (or a subgroup of a previous group) has to endure all the pain this brings. Sometimes it feels like we're not really getting better. But maybe we are. But it's still too slow, it still repeats itself, and nowadays we might experience multiple such cycles in our lifetime, when at some point it took generations to get that kind of progress?
There were also parts of it that could easily be interpreted as Jim Crow era politics. Passing was a thing for Blacks as well. Splitting into two different cities reminded me of both redlining and "separate but equal." Of course, history repeats itself, and this allegory could also be applied to Jews, Native Americans, and any other persecuted minority, including gay and trans people. Una's whole situation could pretty easily be mapped onto a "don't ask, don't tell" situation as well.
I don't think Spock was emotionless. For one, an "outburst" is emotional. That he noticed it just means he's aware of it and used to not do it. Then, whenever he spoke of Una on the trial was super emotional. Praising her is because he likes her, not because it is logical (in the setting).
This is how the really great sci-fi allegories work. It's not just transplanting a real life situation into outer space, it's coming up with an outer space situation that is a sufficiently rich text and rings sufficiently true that people can see parallels to real life situations in it.
Honestly, the trial episodes of Star Trek tend to be the some of the best. Drama without explosions are when it's different from most other sci-fi franchises, and it's good to see it come back. SNW really is the best current Trek show.
Star Trek type shows in general. I remember the Orville also had a great trial episode.
Loved it. Star Trek has always been handwavy with legal rules in favour of a compelling debate and this was no exception.
As a Canadian, I instantly started thinking about the metaphor in terms of laws the Canadian government had against indigenous people practicing or teaching their cultural practices.
On the other hand, as a gay man, I was thinking about when homosexuality was considered a criminal practice and how sometimes gay men will stay in the closet to avoid discrimination.
One of the things that’s most interesting to me is how many minorities groups Una’s experience maps to in some rhyming way.
I've heard a number of people interpret it about themselves, which is really good, the allegory was understandable while still being a cohesive story.
I thought trans people were a good fit for the metaphor, given the body alterations that can be involved.
I think how the genetic augmentation ban was portrayed in Una's case in particular - a military court martial - was similar to "Don't Ask Don't Tell", so LGBTQ+ groups do seem to fit better than, say, race or sex. Even with DADT no longer in force, there's topical parallels, like you suggest, with trans people. But there was an emphasis on the Illyrians' genetic augmentation being "their custom", so you can apply religious or cultural prejudice equally as the allegory.
When the Federation gets a little handwavy with legal rules, just remember that this is a civilization which went through a "kill all the lawyers" phase
Every show is handwavy about legal rules, not just Trek! Trek at least has the benefit of usually being a military court for a fictional military organization.
I was going to say "I don't think there was a debate here really, unlike say in Measure of a Man". But that's not actually true, I just find the Federation argument so specious and hypocritical compared to many other Federation points that I honestly don't see their POV.
I'm... not gonna lie, I get the Federation's argument. Genetic engineering is a dangerous thing to start doing to sapient species, and it can lead to a resurgence of eugenics and other stuff like that.
The only real issue with their stance is that they discriminate against people who've been genetically augmented, instead of simply trying to prevent stuff from happening in the first place.
I really enjoyed it. Star Trek is at its strongest when it gives itself time to mull over philosophical, ethical, and social issues. This episode really knocked it out of the park. Just really well-written overall.
I really like the look fo the dress uniforms. Surprised that they never got Pike to the stand, especially after Una confessing that she told Pike 4 months ago.
Now that the cast has been reset, I'm ready for them to explore some strange new worlds.
Honestly, the sets and costumes for SNW are setting the bar for TV shows in general, let alone star trek. Just as much as the new plots, I've been looking forward each week just to the visuals.
Yes, this. It’s setting a new bar. Fantastic design, well executed.
SNW seems to have hit a gestalt of not just production and costume design but also lighting and cinematography. Like TOS and early colour television, it’s making the most of the new UHD technology. Everything has come together and is reinforcing the impact.
Discovery was reaching for this in the 32nd century design, and even with the Enterprise bridge as originally built for Discovery season two. The principal ship sets from the first season were an ongoing constraint though. Costume designer a gersha Phillips found her initial attempts to put the Discovery crew into 32nd century uniforms did not stand out against the ship’s dark bridge.
It will be interesting to see if they can achieve something similar in the 32nd century with the new Starfleet Academy show.
The crew quarters with those slanted columns look really sleek.
Surprised that they never got Pike to the stand, especially after Una confessing that she told Pike 4 months ago.
I think Pasalk was pretty out of line with his approach - his questioning essentially amounted to a criminal investigation of someone else. My knowledge of law isn't very strong, but that seems inappropriate.
You generally can't make people incriminate themselves, and upping a charge from fraud to conspiracy would be exactly that. That is, in a court run by laws instead of TV logic she could've remained silent.
...unless there's some special sauce in US law that says "once you take the stand" or something, dunno I don't speak common law and Trek can't help itself but assume US law but it definitely doesn't look kosher.
I couldn't help but wonder whether they're setting him up as a badmiral or it was just Chekov's gun from the Vulcan brawl. If the latter, they did a lousy job of tying them together ... I was going with option A while watching and only considered B afterward.
In my opinion that might have been the perfect Star Trek episode. Well written, relevant to what we face in modern day society, and a celebration of the crew of the Enterprise as well as the world as we wish it to be. A civil rights trial for the 21st (and 23rd century). I needed to see this today.
This was an absolute gem. I don't have much of substance to add just now (except that those dress uniforms are very nice), but after being on the whole disappointed by the season opener I am extremely pleased with this episode. Definitely one of the strongest in the show so far, which is no small feat.
I really loved the dress uniforms. Particularly the details on the collars and on the medals. I only wish they'd done a little more with the Admiral dress uniforms. Leaving them all in Federation Blue like early Discovery is a little odd.
This episode had me crying, it was so beautiful and strong. Especially the part where La'an is told that she isn't a monster. The thing is while yes this is a fictional case, as someone that is trans irl, it hits home strong..
This really was classic trek, Star Trek as Star Trek should be.
Don't have much to add, but I really loved the episodeSuperb episode, a real high mark. The 1st episode was so disappointing I was worried they'd gone of the rails with the nonsense kung fu segment in the middle, but Ad Astra Per Aspera was a perfect episode.
The writing was great, and the pace and rhythm perfect with highs and lows, good use of emotions and a perfect ending. I love these character driven episodes - we learnt more about Una, and also La'an in effective way, but also about the context and imperfections of the Federation. The cast is also great, making the close family like dynamics of the Enterprise command staff feel real.
I'm glad they also didn't put Pike on the stand. It allowed Una and Neera to shine, and Neera (Yetide Badaki) who was a superbly crafted and acted character - she ran the gauntlet of dislikeable to a most loved character in one episode.
An excellent episode which is virtually certain to displace "Measure" as Trek's most venerated hour of space court.
One thing that always strikes me about SNW—even the middling episodes—is just how vivid, bright, and beautiful this show is. Grimdark has its moments, but this visual style is a much better and more natural fit for Star Trek.
It was good but don't think it will surpass jean luc
And just to have measure of a man’s back for a second, the trial was decided on a fairly deep point: how we chose to discriminate against individuals becomes the way we chose to consign whole groups or races to awful fates, however obvious the individual differences seem and however much they seem to justify differential treatment.
Cuts across a lot of things, and more than the principles addressed in this episode especially the asylum technicality at the end (which I enjoyed just from legal drama standpoint)
I think this episode was really good...if the issue of discrimination was over literally anything other than a social practice of genetic modification. Star Trek's hardline stance on linking social genetic modification to eugenics is one of the things that I've really appreciated, especially as corrosive "thought experiments" about it have sort of entered back into the discourse. I don't think you can practice genetic manipulation on a society wide level without it going very bad very fast. At least I don't think humans can, and the episode doesn't really make a case for why the Illyrians are better at it.
The core message of this episode is so important, especially at this current moment, and the right of people to self determination and to safety and security in their identities and differences is right at the heart of Star Trek, so I'm glad to see SNW continue to affirm it. But...just...there are reasons, real reasons, with lots of horrific history behind them, for why normalizing genetic manipulation in the name of improving or "fixing" populations of people is still a real third rail for me, and I wish the episode had figured out how to engage with that specifically a bit more. This episode does not actually convince me that in the far future utopia of the Federation the dangers of genetic modification as a practice have been addressed, and in absence of that "It used to happen and its bad, but stuff is better now and can't we relax a little" is a bit...hollow
I think you could fix this for me if you made it so that Illyrian genetic modification was something that members of their species voluntarily entered into in adolescence or early adulthood. Make it more of a practice that people voluntarily keep up and less of a program that their society runs and the whole thing works way better for me. That also makes the loose analogy to transgender people in our current time, and really just the right of bodily autonomy and self determination, way more coherent.
I really hated this episode for this reason. I hate the thought experiment of "what if we found a planet where everyone practices eugenics and so therefore it's racist to be against eugenics".
Like if the rest of the world had found an isolated Nazi Germany, would it have been discriminatory and prejudiced to be against their practices? To not let them into the military? Of course not
Like why even write that plotline? Why are the writers choosing to legitimize eugenics like this, like it ever could be neutral or good and not horrific? I'm unwilling to entertain the idea that there's a good way to do it, just as I'd be unwilling to entertain a fictional society that showed slavery in a positive light
I am European, we had an interesting talk about the travelling community at my work the other day. When certain groups of travellers come to town there is issues with their culture fitting with the settled communtity and a small but visible element of not following the laws and customs. From issues with their approach to educating their children especially girls, to petty theft, to resolving disputes with violence.
However they revealed among those at my work were several children of travellers or even those that had travelled and settled down. For the first time I heard my self internally saying "not you though your the good ones" and felt ashamed. Ina a sort of interview format they revealed people called local sites slurs in front of them or even they joke about his RV (he has still some connection) being a "[traveler slur] wagon" not realising his connection and that it does hit home to his roots.
It really opened my eyes to those in a communtity where there may be a large minority that have questionable practices but we should still treat individuals on a case by case basis.
a similar thought might be devout Muslims (e.g. personally I think following religious practice IS a choice) with community level mysogeny or homophobia. Again while we may not agree with the community, hating the individual is not humanity.
I think they kept that genetic manipulation is bad for the reasons you suggest...but also that the children did not have a choice and shouldn't be punished for their heratige or things they didn't choose. It was more don't single.out the individuals
It was trying to do that, but then doesn't have the time or space to set up how the Federation is going to regard Ilyrians going forward, or if anything is going to change. Its like they settled on "gene modification" as the one discrimination they thought the Federation held onto in the future and slotted it in for story purposes, but without the space to actually deal with the reasons why its taboo. Ironically I think if they had made it about something closer to an actual religious practice and said "Discrimination still exists in the future, lets talk about it" this episode would have worked way better for me
I agree with this. It was clear from when the lawyer called the eugenics laws "race laws" that Number One was going to get off somehow, but I really missed seeing in the courtroom somebody make the case that genetic augmentation is meaningfully different from genetic modification -- in particular in the case of Illyrians, that they modify themselves to exist harmoniously with their environment and not to breed superhumans. Eugenics is bad, and genetic augmentation is also bad and I think corrosive to society, as is covered in Doctor Bashir, I Presume.
Overall, I thought it was good Star Trek, but missing a robust engagement with the issue at hand which was disappointing. A better episode than last week, though.
Oh also -- it was very exciting to see a Tellarite! We barely see any of them, especially compared to the other three founding members.
EDIT: Thinking about it more, I do actually think it's a bit objectionable to call anti-eugenics laws "race laws". I get that Starfleet is fictional, but in our actual universe, "race laws" have tended to go hand in hand with eugenics, so it really feels a bit ... unfortunate. And based on this episode's Ready Room, they seem pretty comfortable with the idea that Starfleet and the Federation are in the wrong about genetic augmentation, and I don't feel like they drew the line in the episode or in the Ready Room episode between augmentation and modification.
But…just…there are reasons, real reasons, with lots of horrific history behind them, for why normalizing genetic manipulation in the name of improving or “fixing” populations of people is still a real third rail for me, and I wish the episode had figured out how to engage with that specifically a bit more.
Other episodes did, and I hope we'll see more of that. Specifically, it's about Illyrian culture: Genetic modification is deeply ingrained, required in their ethics: "We don't terraform planets, that's disrespectful of nature, we transform ourselves", as heard previous season (I'm sure someone will fill in the episode number). As such the practice doesn't root in a desire for dominance or superiority, but gentleness towards the universe.
That is, the issue with the eugenics wars wasn't genetic manipulation itself, but that humanity was war-like and out for dominance and superiority. The augments' attitude of supremacy simply reflect cultural attitudes back then, they were not caused by genetic modifications, but enabled. (Alternatively: The bad idea of imbuing augments with such a sense was due to bonkers scientists influenced by cultural attitudes).
Or maybe more like entheogens: Drugs that kill one society are used responsibly and for benefit by others because they have cultural practices regulating them, rites (regulations) saying when and where and why they should be used.
If the federation ever gets around to legalising genetic manipulation having regulations written by Illyrians and Denobulans sounds like a very good idea.
What I can't get out of my head this morning is actually Bashir's plotline with his parents on DS9, because it captures what's so insidious about even "benevolent" genetic modification. He's not angry at them just because they broke the law, he's angry at them because they decided they didn't like who he was and chose to transform him into someone else, someone he feels is a different person. And this is actually the fundamental argument against a social program of gene management in real life; it allows society to police what types of bodies and what types of minds are "normal" and flattens species diversity and experience diversity in favor of whatever the norms say is "better". The danger isn't just the risk of Khan like supermen, its a moral argument against determining how people's bodies and minds are going to develop before they can even consent, even before they're born.
As strongly as I feel about this, I do think you could create a case for why what the Ilyrians do is meaningfully different, the "adapting to other planets rather than making them adapt to us" idea is interesting and complicated, but it felt extremely cursory in this ep
Thank you! Came on here because the episode left such a bad taste in my mouth. I'm a queer person with multiple disabilties, one of which is known to be genetic. Using genetic engineering as the metaphor for marginalized groups felt like a trojan horse to garner public sympathy for genetic engineering.
And through making genetic engineering acceptable then we're opening up the world to letting parents engineer the gay out of their children and to engineer the neurodivergence out of their children.
Instead of being a story about accepting marginalized groups to me it feels like they're actively pushing for a technology that can be used to wipe out marginalized groups. Why did the writers do this? They literally did not have to set this up or write it this way.
Also the references to the Eugenics Wars as though they are somehow irrelevant today just did not at all sit well with me as somebody who is high risk for covid. This whole pandemic the drumbeat has been "only those with pre-existing conditions will die" and we have been fighting for our lives to get the most minimal public health measures and the ableds just keep putting their conviences over our lives. Eugenics is still here, it's still going strong, but we're just not calling it eugenics anymore.
I think it's really hard to philosophically (which I think is needed as a base to write a law coherently, though I may be the only one) draw a line between medicine and "eugenics" at least as Sci-Fi explores the concepts. And I have real difficulty seeing why it's not just a naturalistic fallacy to say evolution is good but genetic engineering for adaptation or reducing disease or even enhancing abilities is bad.
I see all sorts of problems with government forcing some sort of improvements or discrimination a la Gattaca. I have more trouble saying parents can't make an informed choice however - the alternative seems similar to the Texas shooting where the police prevented parents from trying to save their kids. If there's a treatment or prevention from a disease that causes horrible deaths at young ages - it feels a lot like swinging in the other direction way to far to say - well, we don't want to "wipe out" the minority that dies horribly at 5 from this genetic disease that we otherwise could cure.
I suppose the other point of contention I'd have is I don't have a belief system that says anyone is meant to be in some cosmic sense. So I don't feel a sense of community around being fat let's say. If I had a magic wand to genetically ensure my potential kids could never get fat - I'd think I was doing them a favor, kind of like the teeth sealing that came out too late to prevent cavities for me. I think it's horrible to treat currently fat people poorly, but to let parents decide to stop that from happening to currently not existing people? I struggle to see who we're harming.
Historically, Star Trek has been rather on the side of no cosmic plan, though the newer shows are muddier on that. I don't know if the episode was claiming that the main reason the Federation was against genetic engineering was because it was seen as an "afront against God", but they did call that out in one line. But even if the show was making a religious argument, that's very weak to those of a different or no religion, and the new shows also make it clear the Federation is good with lots of different faiths and atheists too.
To me the vibe was that from the writer's perspective generic modification is so obviously acceptable that it's impossible to even come up with an argument against it that stands up to scrutiny, and that the racism against the genetically modified was just an idiosyncratic cultural trait of the federation that they would hopefully one day grow out of entirely. And I'd pretty much endorse that take. What risk of genocide could possibly be posed by letting parents give their children the modifications they think will serve them well in life? As the episode said, it's not like augments have Khan lurking within them or anything, they're morally no different from anyone else and no more likely to start a genocide.
The danger of letting parents choose modifications they think will serve their children in life is exactly what Bashir expresses in DS9: it gives parents, and society more generally, the power to determine what's acceptably "normal" and flatten out anything that deviates. Geordi similarly expresses at least twice that he doesn't want normal vision, that his blindness is not a defect that needs fixing and what's utopian about the Federation he lives in is that his difference is accommodated and supported.
I've always really appreciated Star Trek's hardline stance on this, because its a moral problem that I feel we've lost a little bit of sight of and is going to emerge again in the next few decades in real life. I think you could make a case for the Ilyrian environmental adaptation being different, but to do that you would have to explicitly place it against the real arguments against gene editing and work through them, and this episode went in a different direction.
I don't think it tries to justify that the Illyrians are better at it, or even that the practise should be justified in any way.
It's more about the treatment of others in a reasonable, decent way which seems to have been clearly lacking from Una's account. So regardless of what practices her people might have been continuing against Federation law, that did not and does not justify the behaviour of others.
So I agree, it doesn't try to justify the dangers of genetic modification though I do not believe that's the aim regardless. It's about treating others decently. From a continuity standpoint I don't think it'd make sense to do so anyway, but my concerns still lie here: how did the Federation manage to cover up the treatment of the Illyrians up through the TNG/DS9/VOY era?
Ad Astra Per Aspera
A beautiful title, I remember watching the anime Ad Astra a few years back. They had a ROUGH time.
Through hardships, to the stars.
You had your playtime, acting like one of them. Accept your dismissal, take your licks and go home.
Una: No. (Why not?) Because I shouldn't have to hide anymore. None of us should. I know I should have done better. I didn't stand up when I should have. I'm standing up now.
YES! GIVE ME THAT STRENGTH!
So it was either dishonorable discharge OR Dishonorable discharge with 20 years in a penal colony.
That's a rough decision.
GIVE EM HELL UNA!
So La'An has an idea that the evidence against Una might have been illegally obtained. This is going to be a really in depth court drama from Star Trek!
La'An: We need to find out who turned her in. It might well be the only way to save her.
But Uhura strictly refuses La'An's illegal order. :|
Counselor: Admiral, it would seem that the rules of Starfleet only apply when a captain deems that they do. (Robert April: Is there a question Counsellor?)
You have shown that you have been repeatedly willing to break the very first order of starfleet and you are hailed a hero. you can break the law if you so choose. So, hiding behind order and protocol to explain why you would not have admitted Una Chin-Riley to Starfleet is a sanctimonious falsehood, is it not?
And of course the JAG gets pissed off at that type of reasoning, how convenient.
Counsellor: My client did not ask to be genetically modified. It is an Illyrian cultural practice done to children before they are even born. It is done for survival and yet she has been arrested because of a violation of a law. But the Admiral has just shown us that Starfleet regulations are are flimsy and subjective at best.
Spock's line about what una was hiding OMG!!!
Spock: Yes, I did get the feeling that she was hiding something.
Neera: What was she hiding?
Spock: An affanity for Gibert and Sullivan musicals.
A BRITISH TAR IS A SOARING SOUL AS FREE AS A MOUNTAIN BIRD HIS ENERGETIC FIST SHOULD BE READY TO RESIST A DICTACTORIAL WORD
Spock: Perhaps. Although I think it is illogical for Starfleet to punish itself.
Neera: I'm afraid I don't understand.
Spock: The loss of Una would be destructive to Starfleet as an organization. She is an extraordinary officer.
Una: She is a Mentor Spock: I have learned a great deal about leadership by serving under her.
M'benga: She puts the lives of her crew above her own. Always.
Spock: She is a friend.
La'An: Family. Una is Family.
And we get more into exactly That.
Counselor: Could it be that you carry your family's augmentations, and you believe that because of them you may become dangerous?
Una: Yes, I do.
OH MY GOOOOOOD...
Counselor: There is nothing wrong with you Lieutenant, no hidden monster inside. But I do know how they make us feel. They look down at us for so long that we begin to look down at ourselves. Genetics is not our destiny despite what you may have been taught. The fear of yourself it's not your own. It was drilled into you. You're not born a monster. You were just born with a capacity for actions, good or ill. Just like the rest of us... i guarantee you are not the the person who leaked Una's true identity to Starfleet.
"Ad Astra per aspera"
To the stars through hardship.
.......
Una: My family, we went to the non-illyrian city. You see, some of us could pass. We could blend in, so we did. We left everyone else behind. Our families. Our friends.. We left them all. I regret it to this day.
...
I wanted my crew to know who me for who I really was. I thought maybe if they did, I would finally be safe. And starfleet would finally understand Illyrian's better.
So it was four months in between Ghosts of Illyria and last season's finale.
Neera: She believed in the best of Starfleet, and that through it she could find salvation from the hardship and danger of her everyday life. Danger she faced just for being born an Illyrian. Dangers born on prejudice. Spurred on by laws against people like her. But through her hardhsips, Una saw the stars. Una joined Starfleet because she believed it was the only thing that could save her life. She fled persecution, and within Starfleet she sought safettu. She Asked for Asylum and Captain Pike granted it.
What an amazing courtroom episode! Did a lot of work for equality in the current moment.
I was recalling a lot of the classic courtroom episodes too, The Menagerie, Drumhead, Measure of a Man. This is top tier stuff.
I also feel relevant to our current controversies.
I loved April getting called out for bending/breaking rules.
Seems that captains of the Enterprise breaking the Prime Directive is a very old tradition indeed.
Spock's line is perfect lying by omission when even omissions is not allowed.
When asked is she hiding something...Spock must answer yes as he knew
What is she hiding...gives a benign thing she is hiding so he has answered the question for one thing....there may be other things she is hiding .....like being an Illyrian but spock does.not have to mention that as he has answered.and she does not push.
Its like dungeons and dragons playing with zone of truth
Minor nitpick in an otherwise really good episode, but it was weird how they put in flashbacks of Una's testimony when Neera was reading the asylum law. That scene had literally just happened, did they make this episode expecting people to be on their phones half paying attention because there aren't any explosions or something?
I think it was to highlight how neera had led Una to say exact phrases. the testimony was many paragraphs long and that flashbacks were to pick out the exact sentances neera had brought out
That makes sense, I would get it if it had happened earlier in the episode and this was the big reveal, but it just happened a couple minutes ago and was still fresh in my mind, so it just seemed excessive and ruined the pacing a bit imo
ahhh
It was hand holding for the politically opposed viewer. Just saying the law doesn't make the point to those who have a more narrow view of what asylum is.
Honestly, that makes a bit more sense.
The flashbacks were very precise, highlighting the exact words that were the keys to the logic. I don't think it was too much, personally.
Oh yeah. That stood out to me as well.
@ferengigrindset Me, definitely not on my phone, definitely paying full attention… 👀 😇
yeah I thought that as well
I loved it. I do not understand the joke about Spock "outburst", was there something in that body language that I am missing? And was this a joke inspired by Lower Decks ?
It was so suttle that it isn't noticeable for humans, but obvious for Vulcan who don't normally show emotion.
Or, rather, it's not noticeable to humans who hasn't lived on Vulcan like M'Benga
The fact that there was no body language is the joke. The actors were told to sit there as impassionatly as possible.
Meanwhile Ortega is the audience eyes, it is just two people sat there with zero emotion.
Embenga can see a difference as is skilled people person and knows other races but we can't see (future doctors must be more akin to vetenarians knowing hundreds of biological systems not just their own like a current doc)
Then the joke is that while on the outside it looks impassionate to a Vulcan that was a "massive outburst". It's a joke on Vulcan lack of emotion
M’Benga studied on Vulcan so he would have developed a capacity to read Vulcan nonverbal communication.
That was a beauty! I love this crew! Seeing them all back Una up made me quite emotional. I'm a soppy git.
Is it me or is SNW the best looking trek ever? Everything just looks so cool. I bloody love it.
The visuals are crazy good, though the first few episodes of season 1 had some questionable makeup
It isn't just you!
One of the things I really liked about it is that there was no explosive denouement (apart from PIke's hug), and Una and Neera didn't automagically become BFFs again at the end. 25 years is a longass time. Even excluding ideological positions, they're strangers now. They probably won't send each other birthday cards. They won't send each other memes on Whatsapp. They won't invite each other to weddings and shit.
And that's okay. Or maybe I'm just projecting. Sometimes I see friends I haven't spoken to in 10+ years on social media, and I think damn back then we couldn't let a day pass without at least a text. But whatever the reason for falling out of touch, I would say I'd be glad if they're thriving and hope things get better for them if they're not. But no interest in rekindling the friendship or initiating contact. And that's okay.
For an episode whose argument hinged on genetic engineering being a cultural practice for the Ilyrians it is strange they never actually had anybody testify as to what significance it has in Ilyrian culture. Or how it is done and why.
If the genetic engineering is done to adapt to their inhospitable atmosphere why are they doing it to every child? They could just edit the germline once and be done with it.
Altogether it felt like the writers just got very attached to the idea of genetically modified individuals as a metaphor for real world marginalized groups that they lost track both of the in-universe practicalities of the metaphor and the real world implications for the metaphor. This was just outright sympathetic to eugenicists, an ideology that has led to the deaths of millions of marginalized people.
To be fair, the argument against augmentation was born purely out of fear of the repercussions it had on the Federation. Telling a society "I know you don't like it but we know better than you" generally doesn't go over well. I feel like they did the right thing by playing into the Federation bias and then flipping it.
@varda @ValueSubtracted Maybe I missed something but I thought the Ilyrians were all about augmentation, both genetic and technological. I think there’s a huge difference between taking something, making it better and the pursuit of a perfect race. I too would like to know more.
While I agree I am curious as to the why/how from an intellectual place, I don't think it bears relevance to the decision based on federation bias. Reminds me of a Canadian "barbaric practices" hotline that was created years ago in a <opinion> misguided </opinion> attempt to assimilate immigrants to Canadian culture. Could there be cultural practices inconsistent with federation values? Maybe. Is this one of them? Not in my opinion
Eugenics is actually disgusting and horrific and totally inconsistent with the values of anyone who isn't a nazi
I always thought the genetic modification ban was pretty flimsy. It wasn't even established until DS9 since TNG had the Darwin Research Station.
I really don't like how strict they made it in SNW. Why should humans dictate the laws for all races in the Federation? What happened to the Denobulans? Phlox said that they genetically modify themselves.
DS9 said that genetic modification was still allowed for the treatment of serious illnesses. So it doesn't make sense for all permanent genetic modification to be banned.
Also, in DS9, genetic modification was more like performance enhancing drugs. Bashir's modifications gave him an unfair advantage over other people. It's kind of like someone cheating to get into a good school. But that argument also has problems since there are aliens with naturally superior abilities compared to humans. Vulcans have perfect memory, superior physical abilities, and telepathy, they would have a big advantage over humans in a lot of things. But Vulcans aren't banned from Starfleet.
There’s a theory that every major race has gone through some version of Earth’s Eugenics Wars, or at least the most influential ones, such that the laws against genetic modification were pushed through. Other races simply didn’t care enough to protest or protest much.
As for the Denobulans, it could be that they wound up on the wrong side of the Neutral Zone after the Romulan War when borders were drawn, so they were never Federation members. This also explains why they weren’t seen between ENT and, chronologically, their appearance in PRO.
DS9 said that genetic modification was still allowed for the treatment of serious illnesses. So it doesn’t make sense for all permanent genetic modification to be banned.
The franchise is fairly consistent about genetic enhancements (i.e., augmentation) are illegal, while medical procedures are not. The Darwin station is the biggest outlier.
TNG overall never said anything about the Federation or Starfleet being against genetic modification. It wasn't just Darwin Research Station. They didn't say anything about it in "Masterpiece Society" either.
Dr. Bashir I Presume was the first episode that any kind of ban was ever brought up. They didn't even say anything about a ban in "Space Seed" or "Wrath of Khan."
Also, when Torres was pregnant in Voyager, she wanted the Doctor to modify her baby to remove Klingon traits and no one said it was illegal.
Well, SNW predates DS9, right, so this seems consistent with and even complementary to continuity, unless there’s something in TOS I’m missing.
This episode restored my faith in the series. It one of the best single episodes of Trek to have blessed my eyes.
I agree, this is a phenomenal episode for long-term fans and I'm interested how newer audiences might interpret it, the iMDB rating has been all over the place.
I've seen it said a couple of places that this should have been the season premiere and I think I agree, but I haven't seen much mention of the episode's impact. We know that on the larger timeline, Federation policy on gene manipulation remains unmoved, but there's more going on here.
It becomes evident in the arbiter's closing statement on making an effort to judge augments on their individual circumstances rather than applying the "broad brush" approach, and that is significant. This episode retroactively sets a precedent for Bashir and Dal's cases later.
... also the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" allegory is subtle as Tsar Bomba and I am fucking here for it.
Trek and courtroom dramas name a more iconic duo
Hm... I suppose I might get downvoted, but I thought that the episode was just okay. Don't get me wrong, I love Star Trek episodes that aren't action-oriented and have actual good drama, but we have done courtroom dramas already multiple times. TNG had it with Measure of a Man, which was superb at the time. Battlestar Galactica had that one space court drama that was well executed too. While this episode was maybe emotional and had the allegory on modern society, I thought the episodes borrowed too heavily from so many courtroom drama clichés (objections/"you may proceed, but treat carefully", making someone who would otherwise be on your side be the prosecution, having the defendant lawyer make their own client look bad at the beginning, making prosecution read off a law in front of the court).
I have to say, the emotional allegory on modern society felt the most like TOS / TNG to me so IDK lol. And it's probably impossible with what, 850 hours of Star Trek over the 50+ years, to do something that hasn't already "been done" on a show. This one had a decent (IMHO) update for a civil rights sort of POV, and did a good job of showing how you can be very high minded as a society or as a person, and yet still be hypocritical and prejudiced in a specific way. I also liked that they also were willing to step outside of the "woke strait jacket" some people claim is there, and show April not being consistent re breaking rules vs when to follow them, and saying "who this person was born as is more important than what I knew and know about them", yet it wasn't the "Bad White Male" trope. We all can be blinded, we all make mistakes, and we all probably aren't completely consistent.
This was also one place where I feel like the "Federation isn't perfect / is the bad guy" is both traditionally canonical and justified well in the show. It's also IMHO well done and portrayed why and how the law existed, and also calls out that it's a historical fear, not an actual current issue. It also plays well with the "Just because one law is wrong doesn't mean you should be able to lie on an application", though they didn't address it fully.
I never watch courtroom dramas, so all the clichés worked with me 😅
I really.dont understand the whole make the prosecution read the law cliche, is there some rule that actors can't speak as long as a lawyer would do closing argument?
The audience would get bored if they spoke that long, at least what would be the theory. They also don’t use PowerPoints on TV…
My DaystromInstitute annotations are up at: https://startrek.website/post/90038 (spoilers, naturally).
I really enjoyed it even knowing the laws wouldn't change in the end since Bashir was still persecuted in ds9 but it's always fun to get a court room trek episode
Thoughts as I watch the episode:
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Previously on Star Trek: Una is an augment, and Starfleet greatly dislikes that.
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Oh, Kid Una!
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“How can he council me when he works for you?” Good point!
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This was the ready room scene last week.
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Illyrians hiding on a poisonous planet is a nice touch.
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So, this is an allegory for Don't Ask-Don't Tell and similar anti-gay and discriminatory policies, isn't it? Hiding who she is, for example. Timely.
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Damn, Batel's boss is an asshole.
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Damn, that took awhile to get to credits.
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Oh, more case law for Starfleet!
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“I know you hate giving inspiring speeches.” Heh.
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Ortegas imagining a Vulcan conversation is hilarious.
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“I regret that you had to witness that outburst.”
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Seriously, that outburst, it was so horrifying. Not sure if I can ever emotionally recover from it.
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Oh, those dress unis! Look so much like the TOS ones while still being all modern.
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Hahaha, she's using all the times they ignore the Prime Directive to show the hypocrisy of rules.
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The stuff about her being tried for stuff her parents did calls to mind the stuff with the DREAM act.
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Hang on, wouldn't the fact that La'an has Khan blood flowing through her veins kind of give a possible method of pointing out how much hypocrisy there is to the law?
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“An affinity for Gilbert and Sullivan Musicals”
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Good point about how family isn't destiny and also how the discriminated against can be led to self-loathing.
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I just noticed that the mural/engraving behind witness stand seems to show a bunch of humans, tellarites, andorians, and so on... wonder if it's meant to show the founding of the Federation or great legal scholars of the Fed species.
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Oh shit, she turned herself in.
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“Starfleet is not a perfect organization, but it strives to be.” We all should try to live up to that.
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My Badmiral Sense is tingling.
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Ah, so an asylum loophole! Clever way of allowing her to stay in while still keeping the anti-genetics stuff still in place come Bashir and Dal's time.
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Pike Hugs must be the best hugs.
I swear the credits get later and later every episode, it's so bizarre.
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I was initially a bit bummed at the prospect of a space court episode but this was really well done. So far this show is the best new trek show other than lower decks.
What are the other new Trek shows? You mean Discovery and Picard? Are there more? I've been a bit disconnected.
@jameskirk @Newspeak Lower Decks and Prodigy
The new trek shows are: Discovery Picard Lower Decks Prodigy Strange New Worlds
You're probably blanking on Lower Decks and Prodigy as they are the animated ones.
A mediocre episode whose saving grace was the message. I get what they were going for and I agree with it, as an episode though... meh. It would have been nice to see the Federation fight back a little bit, just for drama purposes. The vibe I got was that even the prosecution was not 100% on board with the law but since it was a law they had to uphold it; imo it would have been more interesting to have a more passionate prosecution. Measure of a Man had Riker, Drumhead had Satie, both good opponents for the heroes. Who was the antagonist here? The bald Vulcan guy who spoke for 2 minutes?
Also the flashback made me feel like the director thinks I'm some sort of idiot who can't remember what happened a few minutes ago. What was the point of that?
I also feel like the episode squandered the opportunity to explore the theme of genetic engineering itself. Why is it so dangerous anyway? Would've been nice to hear that side of the argument.
As a sidenote, I don't like how bigoted the Federation appears to be; this whole ban on augments never sat right with me, not in DS9 and not now.
I enjoyed the episode but agree with most of your points, especially the flashbacks. If the events had happened earlier in the episode they might have been understandable but they had just happened! Spock's little joke was pretty out of character as well.
In the case of Spock I am hopeful we will see him transform into the man he is in TOS. My fear is that they will make the reason for this to be some sort of traumatic event that happens to him while I would prefer a more slow transformation.
Nevertheless, I still remain optimistic about this series' future.
The flashbacks were a weird an unnecessary choice and I do wonder why no one in the editing process called bullshit.
But Spock's joke was not only amusing, but perfect in the context of the episode. It had already been established that he is not fond of the prosecutor, so clearly he was not only sticking up for Chin-Riley, he was sticking it to said prosecutor.
Vulcans don't lie... but they occasionally misdirect.
The antagonist was pretty clearly the bald Vulcan guy. The prosecutor didn't think the law was just, but it was her job. Kind of like Riker being forced in Measure of a Man.
I think it was made clear in DS9 and reinforced here that the whole Federation POV was entirely because of the scars on earth of the Eugenics Wars. I feel like it's maybe analogous to the Patriot Act - passed because of a traumatic event, but now decades (or centuries on) kind of hard to justify for anyone, but getting rid of a law is hard.
And the entire point of the episode was the Federation is bigoted against augments, and no - there's no good reason for it. It's about as good as the argument that because Mao and Stalin were atheists, we should ban atheism - as if THAT's what made them horrible people. And there's nothing in the canon to imply that Khan and the other augment war lords were war lords and fighting the wars because they were augments.
I've said other places I think this hypocrisy of the Federation is actually pretty justified in earlier Trek, we may not like it - but it's not because of nuTrek IMHO. Of course, because Prequel, they also can't fix it.
The Patriot Act is evil, laws against eugenics are good
A heavy-handed civil rights allegory. Like, no subtlety to the metaphor at all, at any point.
It's beautiful. Feels timely in our current day and hammers home the deepest aspirational themes of Star Trek.
I really want Pikes haircut
me too, but i think i'd have to reduce my five-head to a three-head to pull it off.
I was worried before whether or not the first episode would be similar to the rest of the season or was just showy by virtue of being an opener. Whoever picked this to be the second episode read my mind. I really liked how the other comments mentioned that Una's story can be so easily tied to many people's own struggle as living as an "other" with the ability to blend in.
It's almost sad that in the future we may find yet more ways to divide ourselves that will make this episode feel as relevant now as Measure of a Man decades ago.
Absolutely loved this episode! I don't think I have much to add to the discussion that hasn't already been said.. but yeah, loved it!
This episode was striking in that it showed the crew of the Enterprise being the best of the best Starfleet officers. Pike going to literally the brink of death to find his #1 the best lawyer in the galaxy, Uhura telling La'an off for making an illegal request, La'an trying to poke holes into weak chinks in security, and Una stepping up to lay it all out on the table so her friends won't have to keep her secret and be in danger for doing so. Amazing. No wonder they're posted on the flagship.
I LOVED this episode.
When I was a child and watched TOS and TNG for the first time I remember how I was amazed by those Starfleet crews who come from so many different backgrounds and who worked together for a good cause. I really shaped my worldview. And this episode brought all those memories back through Una's story.
And on top of that comes an allegory about the struggles that minorities (still) face today.
Classic Star Trek.
Random sidenotes:
- those dress uniforms look *chef's kiss*
- the same goes for Neera's dresses and the dress of her assistant. I'm a guy and I'm envious of those dresses. 😄
- I really like how everyone has slightly different hairstyles every now and then. Captain Batel styled her hair in three (or even four?) different ways in this episode alone. It feels so much more realistic than what everyone having the same hairstyle for years or even for the entire series, like it has often been the case for previous Treks.
It really was a great metaphor for how LGBTQ people could see themselves in the diversity of Star Trek long before the people running the series were actually willing to include them.
I was so hyped for SNW. Then at the s1 finale I was so hyped for this arc. And it was better than I could've imagined.
If I had to name a single favorite moment, it'd be when (SPOILER) Una admits to turning herself in. That unyielding integrity is what makes her such a badass, and a great number one for Pike.
I largely quite like SNW, but this episode had some extremely questionable eugenics apologia laced into the narrative.
I think the broadest problem with nu-trek (though it's strongly reined in in SNW) is the heavily maudlin over-scoring and the bathos-laden dialogue. When almost every exchange between two characters sounds "perfectly written" and is dripping in score, it's hard to take seriously.
If SNW employed like, 20% more restraint in that regard, it would sing.
I'm currently watching both SNW and Voyager (season 5) in parallel. So far, I'm enjoying Voyager way more, but I cannot pinpoint why. Could it be the longer camera shots? The more stoic personalities? The nostalgia effect? I don't know, but I will keep watching SNW and see how it turns out. I wasn't too impressed with Picard, but the season 3 ending was pretty good event though the show didn't feel like TNG to me.
Sorry about the grammar mistakes. I'm not a native English speaker.
I was definitely missing those pregnant pauses that they had in Measure of a Man. I figure they had a lot of dialog to pack in there, but it did come off pretty "perfect".
We’re in a different era.
I for one am very glad we’re not in the melody-free scoring that was imposed by Berman in the 90s. I recall being at a con in the 90s where Rick Sternbach was presenting. There were several questions from fans asking why TNG and DS9 didn’t use the melodic motifs and themes in the way they had been in TOS. Sternbach laughed, noted that the norms of television scoring had changed but that someone ‘must have played really bad Vivaldi to Berman at some point in the past.’ He also talked about how happy they were to get the theme composed and recorded for DS9.
So, we have to expect each era to reflect the more general trends on use of music.
I find Nami Melumad’s episode scoring on SNW and Prodigy much more restrained than Jeff Russo’s on Discovery and Picard seasons one and two. In particular, I found some of his use of splatting horns overwhelmed some of Discovery’s more dramatic moments. Russo is however award-winning and an in-demand composer on top streaming shows beyond Star Trek.
Man, someone's gotta be cutting onions around here or something.
I dunno if I'm just getting old or if newer Trek just hits harder.
Pretty great episode, I thought. There was just one element I found jarring and unnecessary: the flashback scenes during the defense's closing arguments. Like, we just saw Una say this stuff 5 minutes ago. Are we fucking goldfish? A little more respect for the audience, please.
Aside from that regrettable choice, good stuff.
This was a great episode, but I feel like the one detail missing is the explanation of why they have their hands on the light thingy. Only having watch TOS is that clear really, but other great episode.
Loved the uniform work as well.
I really wished Pike would cook more. I also need some further understanding of what the carrot cutting was being used for. Lol
I might need to give this episode another shot in a few years. It wasn't bad per se, but I just couldn't get into it.
It wasn't a good episode. I'm going to skip it when I re-watch
It is a bit tiring watching my space escapism but it's actually just highly contemporary societal issues, I know I shouldn't expect it not to be, because this series has been highly contemporary from the very first episode, but it's frustrating.
Almost everything about the show, from casting, effects, costumes, practical effects, vibe, directing, camerawork is all excellent.
The writing however is a straight 4/10. Not for the contemporary issues, though they contribute, but half the conversations in this series simply don't make sense. Has anyone else noticed this?
Star Trek has always been contemporary issues wrapped in the veneer of space aliens. It's not meant to be pure escapism.
I would say sci-fi probably has as well or story telling as a whole
Orsen Wells, Asimov etc. A lot of alagory
This was my first Star Trek Series, I've now realised it's a theme. It's certainly my least favourite aspect of the show.
The episode about child sweatshops in particular felt very accusational to me, the message seemed to be that by existing I'm causing child suffering akin to child murder, through cobalt mines and clothing sweatshops etc.
I'm reminded of that bit in The Good Place where the judge says "There's a chicken burger that, if you eat it, means you hate gay people. And it's so gooood! It's not fair!" (Referring to chik-fil-a)