r/Blind's Moderator's have met with Reddit. They say the admins didn't allow them to discuss API changes or 3rd party apps during the meeting. Also, it's not clear if the official app will have modera
r/Blind's Moderator's have met with Reddit. They say the admins didn't allow them to discuss API changes or 3rd party apps during the meeting. Also, it's not clear if the official app will have modera
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/341887
So yeah water is wet. reddit doesnt care and its great lemmy exists.
I hope that post gets traction. People should be sharing it all over to prove Reddit is being entirely disingenuous. They don’t care about third party apps or accessibility, they immediately made promises they have no ability to keep before their self imposed deadline.
Edit: after considering further I just wish the post organically gained traction. I think Reddit deserves to be shamed for what they are doing, but wouldn’t want it to seem like people are using their community in furtherance of a broader goal.
I have zero problems letting r/Blind lead the charge. They did a great job highlighting the failure of exec leadership.
At the end of the day, what Reddit can sell to advertisers are communities of like-minded people who might be willing to buy stuff.
Drive out the community, and what can Reddit sell? Nothing. They should be scrambling to repair the damage done, to keep advertising eyeballs in their ecosystem. r/Blind response shows that they have no clue and no intent to retain users.
I agree this really seems like it should be dead center in the conversation. It clearly demonstrates just how massively reddit is messing up. Right before leaving last week I saw tons of people upset and disgusted when they realized these repercussions. I don't know if that sentiment has continued over there.
Unfortunately there are tons of people believing that Reddit has already done the work by exempting certain accessibility apps from the changes. So they think there’s nothing to worry about.
In a schadenfreude kind of way, it's interesting to watch it begin to burn down.
Fuck u/Spez. We'll take great satisfaction watching the next chapter of your self destruction while you try to "cash out".
I remember when Digg collapsed and the Great Exodus happened. It's incredible to see history repeat itself.
It's so clear that reddit doesn't have a freakin' clue about accessibility. Not a single person on their 2000 employee staff knows anything. Seems like accessibility is just a distraction from NFTs for them.
Considering apollo is the app for iOS accessibility, implementing the actual provided iOS apis to support users with needs, you are absolutely correct.
If they cared about accessibility, apollo would not be having this problem
I'm guessing that most of them know exactly what they're doing, they just hope to sail through since a large portion of Reddit users are using the official New site and the official app. Also, their goal is specifically to get rid of third party apps.
Judging by the logic that 'TPA users a very small fraction of our users and therefore they don't matter to us' I really don't see why accessibility users wouldn't fall into that same camp. They just have to be more circumspect about it for PR reasons.
This definitely where we need something like a digital ADA law. You grow big enough and you have to support disabled users of your website.
Full text of the post on reddit (part one, 5000 character limit), so you don't have to wander around looking for it or give reddit the traffic:
Moderators of r/blind—along with moderators in other communities who use assistive technologies and Reddit users with accessibility expertise—had a Zoom meeting with representatives at Reddit on Friday, June 16, 2023. While the call was promising in that Reddit invited us to be part of continuing dialog and demonstrated some well-conceived accessible designs for Reddit users, we came away with serious concerns which Reddit was either unable or unwilling to address during the meeting.
Reddit is currently prioritizing accessibility for users rather than for moderators, and representatives were unwilling to provide timelines by when Reddit’s moderation tools would be accessible for screen reader users. Further, Reddit representatives seemed unaware that blind moderators rely on third-party applications because Reddit’s moderation tools present significant accessibility challenges. They also seemed unaware that the apps which have so far received exemptions from API pricing do not have sufficient moderation functions. u/NTCarver0
explained that blind moderators will be unable to ensure safety for our communities—as well as for Reddit in general—without accessible moderation systems, and asked Reddit representatives how blind moderators were supposed to effectively moderate our communities without them. Reddit representatives deferred the question, stating they would have to take notes and get back with us. A fellow moderator, u/MostlyBlindGamer
, also pointed out that blind moderators who are unable to effectively moderate the subreddit and thus will become inactive may be removed at Reddit’s discretion per policy, and that such removal would leave r/Blind with no blind moderators. Reddit representatives also deferred comment on this issue.
Reddit representatives refused to answer questions concerning the formal certifications, accreditations or qualifications of employees tasked with ensuring universal accessibility. These certifications demonstrate that a professional has the knowledge necessary to create universally-accessible software and/or documents. Because Reddit cannot confirm that employees tasked with universal accessibility hold appropriate certifications or that the company will provide for such training and certification, we have concerns that employees do not have the appropriate knowledge to effectively ensure access for all assistive technology users both at present and in the future. Reddit has also indicated there are not currently any employees who work full-time on accessibility. This is a necessity for any organization as large and influential as Reddit.
Reddit representatives had previously disclosed to r/Blind moderators that an accessibility audit had been performed by a third-party company, however they refused to answer questions as to what company performed the audit or how the audit was conducted. Answers to these questions would have allowed us to determine whether the audit was performed by an accredited organization known for credible and thorough work. Reddit also could not answer questions as to what assistive technologies, such as screen readers, screen magnifiers, dictation softwares, etc., were used during the audit. Bluntly, we cannot know the thoroughness or scope of the audit—and therefore the extent to which Reddit is aware of the accessibility barriers present in their website and apps—without this information.snip, see part two
Part two:
During the previous meeting, Reddit representatives raised a question regarding perceived disparities between the accessibility of the iOS and Android apps, suggesting the audit did not confirm that the accessibility failings in the iOS app are much more severe than those present in the Android app. During the latest meeting, u/MostlyBlindGamer
explained that the iOS app has no labels for the ubiquitous and essential upvote and downvote buttons while the Android app does. This question raises the concern that Reddit representatives may not have a full and actionable understanding of the issues at stake or, in fact, the exact accessibility failings in their apps.
Reddit representatives narrowly defined the scope of the latest meeting less than an hour ahead of it, explicitly excluding third-party apps and API pricing from the conversation. They did acknowledge that this made it difficult to adequately prepare for the meeting.
Reddit refused to define the term “accessibility-focused app,” alleging that this was outside the scope of the meeting. This term is not industry-standard and was instead created when Reddit carved out an exemption in their upcoming API policies for third-party apps used by blind people to access the platform. Without this definition, we are unable to ascertain whether apps that have not been approved but are nevertheless relied upon by community members qualify for an exemption.
Reddit gave no firm commitments as to when accessibility improvements would be rolled out to the website or apps. However, it is obvious that the Reddit website and apps will not be ready for disabled users—and especially moderators—by July 1.
In general, moderators of r/Blind who attended the call came away with mixed impressions. Reddit seems to be somewhat aware of the myriad accessibility barriers present in their applications and website, and the company appears to be laying the groundwork to fix issues which they are aware of. This is excellent news. However, we also feel that Reddit does not know what it does not know, and this lack of knowledge is exasperating, disheartening, and exhausting. We also came away frustrated that Reddit representatives were either unwilling or unable to answer prudent and pertinent questions which would allow us to determine not only how we can best keep our community safe and healthy, but also whether Reddit is truly prepared to commit to ensuring accessibility for all disabled users both now and in the future. Finally, we hope that our concerns—especially those pertaining to moderation—will be addressed expeditiously and satisfactorily, thus assuring that r/Blind can operate effectively well into the future. Despite our concerns, we remain open to continued dialog with Reddit in the hope that it will foster a more accessible platform.
You know someone is a huge asshole when they give blind people a hard time.
Fuck u/spez...
Is there any traction for an ADA lawsuit here? Any lawyers care to comment?
I saw someone comment earlier that the ADA doesn't apply to websites. I have no idea about the actual legalities, but it seems like it would kind of have to be true. I mean, when someone creates the first version of a website as a part-time hobby, they very probably aren't aiming for anything other than "get it working". They aren't spending time catering to blind users.
Hell, most commercial publications don't even bother to put their graphs and such in colorblind-friendly colors, which seems like it'd be vastly lower-effort.
it does apply to websites but it depends on some things. For example if you build a SASS application and provide it to a company. A big vector for this type of legal issue for a while was POS systems there was a big lawsuit a while back where all the major retailers were sued so that's mostly been addressed. If its required as part of a job being performed by someone with a disability aka not WCAG 2.0 compliant you could get in sued. If you do any kind of work that is tangentially connected to US federal funds or serve a government RFP(federal and most states) you will have to be ADA compliant.
Half the states in the US arent compliant with the ADA, that's what the Olmstead decision was about and it's still not fully enforced. You can try anything but few want to enforce the ADA like that.
Reddit is intentionally crashing. They will not actually finish moderator utilities until it is far too late.
Rip
Ooh classic corpo "pretending to care" strategy, we‘ll see how it works out.
Reddit just doesn't care at all. It is a shame.