They say that like it's a bad thing.
What kills me is that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. The longer they fight against change, the more people they will convince that capitalism itself is the problem.
Exactly. End both of them
Maybe capitalism needs to suck it up and pull itself up by its bootstraps instead of needing subsidized fossil fuels. /s
↑ This, but without the /s.
In particular, we need to protect the free market by creating a carbon tax to compensate for fossil fuels' negative externalities and level the playing field for "greener" competitors.
Not taxing carbon is anti-capitalist protectionism.
You don't need to end capitalism to help the climate.
Just properly regulate it. It's a tool just like every other economic system, and shouldn't be hoisted to a higher pedestal. Every system that fails fails because regulation falls off the wayside and leads into corruption. Capitalism's only strength is it took longer to get there because all the power was spread out for awhile.
That's a pretty shallow take on historic economics.
Capitalism had a role to serve as the transition out of feudal economics.
Now it's time to do better.
So it's better just because the guy who created it said so?
Like half of Marx's theories are gross oversimplifications that are definitely biased towards his point
Well communism has been tried and it didn't work. It was trounced by the capitalist world which, nevertheless, adopted some socialist ideas, especially in Europe.
So no, it's not time to do better. Communism isn't the next step after capitalism. It clearly isn't remotely capable of competing with capitalism in the long term. No matter how many thousands of pages of theoretical wishful thinking people have written about it, if it doesn't work in the real world it doesn't work. It always ends up in authoritarian, repressive regimes that are economic backwaters. To the extent that they desire secular growth they have to open up markets like China did, and simply become authoritarian and somewhat economically free.
regulation falls off the wayside and leads into corruption
And vice versa! Corruption leads to lack of regulation. It's a shit circular dance that I feel like we're doomed to repeat regardless of the economic system we pick.
Agreed. Capitalism is a horrible master but a good slave. Just like we regulated the other forces of nature (like fire) to harness them in our favour, so should we harness market forces to work for us.
Capitalism works well when there is plenty of potential for growth, but when there are non-monetary reasons (such as the literal end of ecosystems favorable to human life) that require adjustments or even degrowth, it quickly devolves into feudalism - and the problem is that we do not have the means to quickly stop CO2 emissions without tightening our belts in energy consumption, which in turn requires some degree of degrowth.
You don’t need to end capitalism to help the climate. Just properly regulate it.
Except that politicians (i.e. those that would be doing the regulating) all have a price, and for oil barons no price is too high; and bribing is still magnitudes cheaper than stopping the destruction of the environment.
It's a tool just like every other economic system, and shouldn’t be hoisted to a higher pedestal.
If it's not objectively better nor special, why not try something more equitable that doesn't siphon 99% of all resources to the
aristocracyelite and leaves everyone else fighting for the crumbs?Why keep using a system that prescribes that the hungry should starve if they can't afford food even though we already produce more than enough to feed the whole planet?
Yeah, we need regulation but no direct intervention like the state is currently doing to protect monopolies.
Like, make some rules to keep competition fair but don't go to specific companies to protect them
Is there a lemmy equivalent to /r/SelfAwareWolves? Because this fits.
Make it and crosspost!
Ah, it exists: [email protected]
selfawarewolves material
The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. It's just that capital would grow slower. You can have a green capitalism. It just that no one invested in that
"Green capitalism" only exists if green energy is more profitable than climate-harming alternatives
Given the multiple decades of oil and gas infrastructure, that's not realistic.
In theory, consumer demand for green energy could make this a reality, but it would have to be a massive swing. And in practice, most consumers will go for the cheapest option - in many cases, given their resources, they have to.
The other way that green energy could become more profitable is through heavy government regulation. So... yeah you could have a green 'capitalism' if the State manages the market, and withstands the corporate pressure to withdraw. But that has literally happened nowhere
I suppose hypothetically you could argue that IF a company invested heavily in green technology and IF that investment resulted in a cheaper form of energy, AND that technology also applied to the supply chain, then we could have green capitalism. But i mean that's highly speculative and it also would be entirely a coincidence
"Think tank" as in circlejerk.
I've only recently come across PragerU on Youtube, and ever since I have only been rolling my eyes at what they say.
They're yet another cancer on society...
The mothers days day after I had a baby, they sent me a book in the mail about a boy and a dog (I think the dogs name was Otto) celebrating mothers. It was weird but historically accurate. They said that one of the founding fathers mother was a good mother because she taught the founding fathers the bible. Im not sure what to do with the book... Donate it?
I love animals. I hate mosquitoes. If one gets in my house I'll hunt it down and smash it gleefully. Then apologize and tell it I feel bad because it didn't choose to be born a mosquito
Same for this book. I love books and feel they should be respected, but perhaps this one is like a mosquito and maybe should be disposed of into the recycling
Send them another book, "The Wright Brothers". At least their mom was an awesome lady, a goddamn mechanical engineer, and a college graduate. She taught them how to bang on and tinker with stuff and ta-da now we have airplanes.
This was the final straw for me to finally get off FB, toooooooo many (unhinged) "friends" quoting PU as facts & citing them as a source. Pure propaganda garbage.
aaannnd?
Honest question, what economic or political system exists out there that would be better for climate change?
Or is the assumption that system doesn’t exist yet?
There are several ideas out there, but yes they generally require transitioning away from capitalism. The one I'm particularly fond of is called a "library economy", where we no longer commoditize anything that isn't consumable. Imagine instead of buying a wheelbarrow and shovel to do some yard work, you go to the gardening library and checkout the things you need. When you're done in about 3 weeks, you return the items back to the library.
In general though, any planned economy would be far more efficient and less wasteful. Imagine that instead of 30 different TV's with the exact same panel, there's 2 or 3 types of tv with that panel. The way Walmart operates is a perfect example of a planned economy.
I don't see how a library economy would work with a lot of things. Like, if I wanted to do a house cleaning day, I go to the cleaning library and rent a vacuum. But what if I drop something on the floor...I have to check out a vacuum, just to clean it up? Then what if all the vacuums are checked out? It really seems horrible inefficient and a logistical nightmare.
Imagine instead of buying a wheelbarrow and shovel to do some yard work, you go to the gardening library and checkout the things you need.
I get the sentiment but that sounds awful. Do I need to go borrow a mountain bike every time I want to go for a ride which I now do about 3 times a week? What about my hobby as a maker? Do I need to go borrow all the necessary tools every time I want to build something?
This would basically mean that I get almost nothing done ever because when the inspiration strikes my tools are nowhere to be found.
Don't Google what planned economies did to the Aral Sea and it's climatic consequences
Not disagreeing with your central point, but it's worth noting that planned economy has been tried and it failed, not due to planning errors but fundamental systemic issues with the approach.
Any system that has some growth built into it will eventually cause problems, it's just that some of them, like capitalism, are very efficient at getting us to these points faster. The best system for the climate was discarded long ago, as we moved out of the hunter-gather phase and discovered techniques in maximizing our energy into other things besides just surviving. Agriculture and all that it allowed were the first steps into taxing the earth's balance.
Socialism.
Capitalism is inherently a wasteful of resources and also doesn’t value human life nor the planet’s life. The planet and people are just something to be exploited to enrich the top capitalists who contribute nothing.
It encourages planned obsolescence, short term profit making, and production of commodities which exist solely to turn profit, etc.
A socialist economy, if not being constantly undermined and sabotaged by the capitalist imperial core cough , would exist to meet the needs of the people, the workers. There is no capitalist class under this economy. All surplus value goes to some collective, the state usually, to be held and used in common for the betterment of the people who labored. If all countries adopted this outlook and abolished their capitalist classes and liberal democracies which exist solely to protect the capitalists, then all resources could/would go straight to necessary resource production. Things like food, housing, etc. would be met very quickly due to technology that already exists. This is absolutely not an issue. It’s only an issue due to hoarding, poor/zero distribution of resources under capitalism, and purposeful scarcity as a “disciplining” tool for labor.
Once basic needs are met, luxury commodities can also be created. This is where BUT NO IPHONE? VUVUZELA? comes in. People incorrectly attribute technological innovations to the economic system instead of realizing that 1) capitalism had absolutely nothing to do with smartphones or the internet existing and 2) these things would exist under a socialist economy as well, however the end result may look different simply due to a focus on things that last longer and aren’t meant to be chucked in the bin after 2 years. The only reason our gadgets die so quickly is so we can be sold more gadgets and this causes more surplus labor (profits) to be sucked into the capitalist class. Remove that thievish incentive and you remove the excessive waste associated with it while retaining better commodities that meet the desires of society in a “fair” way that doesn’t destroy the world for the benefit of the few.
Basically imagine a world run by those who labor and importantly a world not designed to simply suck all the profits of exploitative labor under bullshit made up reasons to the 1% and 0.1%. Some people call it utopian. To some, the idea of people cooperating, which is the “natural” state of man, instead of being at each other’s throats because some rich thieving class put them in that position, is inconceivable. And to those people, they should examine why it is they so readily accept the bullshit shoveled down to them from those with every incentive to kill them and the planet and why they dismiss so easily as “utopian” the most obvious solutions. “Oil companies are raping the earth to enrich a few people? What if we… didn’t have… oil companies…?” That logic is never allowed. And it’s worth asking why it is people don’t look to the simple answers that we can very clearly see would be better for the average person. Your “honest question” (ok dude) here is a perfect example of this fascinating phenomenon. You already knew the answer, yet something prevented you from embracing the solution and instead posting bad faith questions. Well, anyway, that’s a different topic, I suppose.
My “honest question” was not asking if a better system could be described, that much is obvious. My question was about the intent of statements like OP. I was probing at the idea that current socialist or communist examples are better than capitalism (perhaps marginally). My understanding is that doesn’t seem so.
Per my other reply, I think the answer to my question is yes, the path forward is to trash all the systems we have at the moment and shoot for something closer to what you described.
Read the phrasing of my question, I asked if any systems exist, not theorized.
If you want to avoid saying socialism, communism, or true communism (anarchism) then try library economy or gift economy. Some nice examples I've heard.
Except that some of the absolute worst ecological tragedies in the modern world were done in socialist systems, largely because they were inefficient, central planning made it more effective, and people couldn't say no or mitigate it. I honestly think that people use socialism as a catch-all to be a system where they can force through the changes they would prefer to see in the world.
Meanwhile, some of the most effective ecological mitigations of the modern world were done through legislation and regulation of a capitalist system. Example: the banning of CFCs and water management.
It's largely our growth as a population that's caused the issues and it requires drastic action at all levels to live within our means. We can live more sustainably and we are getting there but it does require an efficient system and an educated populous. That results in better regulations on markets that can account for externalities.
Poisoning the waterhole hurts everyone regardless of the system. There needs to be consequences put in place for doing so, and by the international nature of the problem, it requires treaties to get all systems aligned. That takes time and effort and we are getting there.
I guess where I get thrown off by statements like this is thinking of socialist and communist examples of recent history. They all seem to consume as fast as their capacity allows, never seems that different from capitalism. I know a lot of examples aren’t perfect representations of that economic style, but closest examples we have. Just always seemed to me the idea of eliminating capitalism to heal climate change should be, eliminate all systems we currently have in favor of something new.
Library economy sounds interesting
I think one way to make capitalism suck less would be abolishing publicly owned corporations. Having shareholders to please creates pressure to grow the company's value even when there is no good reason to. I think it would be far better if companies stayed as family owned mom and pop shops and weren't allowed to snowball.
Remember that the only reason for the enshittification of Reddit is that it's doing an IPO. Likewise, I recently noticed that the company that owns my local mini golf course is publicly traded. Since the course has already been built there is no room for meaningful growth and any attempt to grow the company's value by turning visits into an 'experience' or a 'package day out' will irritate people like me who are just looking to pay to use a barbones course.
Best comedy website ever
patriarchy too, pal.. might as well learn it now..
Same energy
Uh huh
Why the hell are gekte posts being reposted here
I recently switched to lemmy and now sort out my old reddit downloads. As I cane by this picture I thought I could post it and I think it was a good thing, looking at the discussion about socialism and library economy in the comments.
Well if the people who really claim that humanity is heading for extinction really thought so in their heart of hearts, they'd be willing to make compromises and work with the capitalist system and those who disagree with them economically to steer civilization away from mass extinction. They'd say "Ok, fine, you're a libertarian (or whatever), how can we come together and make a deal to turn this ship again."
And yet they don't.
Does compromise with a death cult ever work? Whether they're racists, fascists, religious zealots, capitalist profiteers, or any other group that devalues human life, it doesn't seem like compromise works or is even a possibility.
Really? Ancient civilizations didn't much value human life. They didn't emit much CO2 at all. They're very much two separate things.
As I said to another person here, most of the neo-liberal governments of the world are very much trying to cut emissions. They value human life much more tham ancient civilizations or modern communist countries have.
Hard to find a common ground when the other person is not believing in climat change or that we have to do anything and it will not magically sort it self out.
Really? Because most of the large countries of the world are very much trying to cut emissions. But They're not communists. They're by and large neo-liberal.
No one listenend to those people, the issue has been known at least for the last 50 years, there was enough time for compromises, but nearly nobody cared.
So now we're here.
If I believed that our current system will be the cause for the extinction of my species, how could I still make a compromise with someone who still lives and thinks like it's 1960?
That reply is, frankly, both stupid and ignorant.
