what does it mean that Beehaw "defederated" from lemmy.world?
what does it mean that Beehaw "defederated" from lemmy.world?
I thought I understood, but I still have Beehaw content in my feed, so I guess I don't understand after all... Can someone dumb it down for me?
We need a c/FederatedDrama write up.
wait why did they defederate us?
lemmy.world and and sh.itjust.works have a lot of users and it seems like beehaw was getting too much content from them. There are apparently only 4 people running beehaw and they felt they couldn't moderate all the content and felt like it was a vulnerability that lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works just let anyone sign up.
participate the effort to create an alternative to Reddit people leave Reddit to join the alternative be unable to handle the influx of people trying to use the alternative to a website with millions of users
Their reasons are much more selfish than that. They insist on only having 4 moderators while never scaling up, and they don't like how federation allows users from other instances to post on their instance because it disrupts their rigid ideal community vibe. According to their suggestions on "improving moderation tooling", the ideal federation setup is that their users can post on other instances, but other instances' users can't post on theirs, so they can save time on moderation work. The moderation work of other instance admins for their users doesn't matter, clearly.
Isn't this like... the whole point of the Federated Universe? The mods do Beehaw want their server to be a "safe space". They're perfectly within their rights to restrict who can post in their own community. But you, the user, are not in any way beholden to their whims, and can make an account on any other Lemmy instance, or create your own and make it as restricted or unrestricted as you please.
It seems logical to me that the creators of a safe space for marginalized communities would restrict their community from the internet at large because people on the Internet feel emboldened by anonymity to attack others.
I read their post explaining the decision, but it seems like it is at odds with itself. If your goal is to create a safe space, why are you using a federated service? I understand you have the option to defederate, but at that point why didn't you just setup a standalone message board. It just feels that their use case doesn't fit the system.
According to their suggestions on “improving moderation tooling”, the ideal federation setup is that their users can post on other instances, but other instances’ users can’t post on theirs, so they can save time on moderation work.
So basically they want to have their cake and eat it too. How lovely.
@Andreas @sebovzeoueb They new going into this that they would be federated. They waited to get enough people then do stuff like this. People will leave then as there content will get old fast. They will realize like reddit that people want to be able to search and find new content
Is that right? That seems not in keeping with the spirit of the thing. If they don't want to moderate large communities, how about you don't host large communities at all. Maybe that's what they're after, but they had seeded the space with a lot of logical communities that people were going to click on from the "find federated communities" pages from around the fverse.
Yep, it sounds exactly like a reddit mod power trip
They have 30 something mods, they are 4 admins.
It's not about being selfish, it's about creating a space that they think can be a safe space. That's what's cool about federation, you just use other instances and that's it.It seems to me that beehaw could already accomplish something along these lines with an "automod" equivalent that just insta-rejects any outsider posts on their hosted communities. So having that built into the protocol as a flag of some sort may actually be a good idea, because then other instances would be able to more easily see that behaviour and choose to not federate with them in return. If I was running a Lemmy or Kbin instance I wouldn't want to bother my users with communities that they could see but not interact with.
Lemmy.world still has all the content it pulled from beehaw before they defederated, but they won't sync anymore, so you won't see new beehaw updates, and they won't see any updates from lemmy.world
Was there a reason why they defederated??
Apparently the 4 admins are having trouble dealing with the influx of new users, so they defederated from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works because their open registration policies are giving them the most problems.
I think this post explains it pretty well.
From what I understand, if you, using a lemmy.world account, post something on a beehaw instance, only people from lemmy.world would be able to see it.
So when an instance is blocked, it means users on the blocked instance will no longer be able to see that instance’s content. For example, beehaw.org has now blocked lemmy.world. However with the way federation works, the content from beehaw is cached on lemmy.world servers. So you can only see what has already been cached; there will be no updated content on any existing cache.
Edit: here's a recent post from kbin.social going into further detail on how federation works.
Wrong.beehaw blocked lemmy.world. lemmy.world has not blocked beehaw. lemmy.world will continue to get content from beehaw. beehaw has stopped all content from lemmy.world from comming to beehaw.lemmy.world accounts can still see new post and comments from beehaw but no comments will be responded to by behaw users because they cannot see lemmy.world post or ocmments.nvm looks like their content did stop coming through.
Wrong wrong. You won't get any new content hosted from beehaw.org
You will see beehaw users in other instances, but you won't be able to see anything new on BeeHaw communities, like /c/[email protected]
So I guess the next question is do we now recreate beehaw communities that were popular and fragment the community, or do we make accounts on a smaller instance that has access to beehaw.org and lemmy.world? I’m not about to start logging in and out of multiple accounts because beehaw mods are getting butt hurt…
I think we should definitely be working on new communities. Beehaw certainly has a place in the fediverse but it's not as the instance with the largest communities. It's simply incompatible with their moderation policies.
Man, This is so cool, Not related to the topic but im able to see yall talk about lemmy from lemmy instances while im on kbin
In my Info Sci classes we talked about federated search and how it could work. Unfortunately, very few instances existed at the time…. in 2010.
fr, fr. Every time I see an entire different instance I can't help but go "Awww, look at them have their own lil discussion/drama over there, how cute" and the fact that I can also interact with them makes it even more adorable.
Correct me if I’m wrong but pretty sure we can see them on kbin but they can’t see us on Lemmy yet. Boss man Ernest is working on it.
I'm seeing this from feddit.de right row
On reddit you could get banned from many subs for posting in a sub that its moderators didn't like. And in the fediverse it's exactly the same. So what's the point? I'm here, because I hoped that it won't be like reddit.
That's just the nature of any site that allows community moderation. If you're looking for something different, try fark.com
That's a name I haven't heard in many years
Just post quality content here and hope the communities move here.
Let the powermod wannabes have their own little barren exclave on Beehaw.
In defense of preemptive bans, some subs do it when you participate in documented hate-subs. Didn't know the practice existed until I got a bunch of automessages. lul
On reddit you could get banned from many subs for posting in a sub that its moderators didn’t like. And in the fediverse it’s exactly the same. So what’s the point? I’m here, because I hoped that it won’t be like reddit.
That's not what caused the migration of the past two weeks. What you described was a thing all the time, yet something different and special seemed to have happened, which caused me, you and many others to move right now.
That special event was a small group of people deciding for the whole platform. This cannot happen here. Instance admins can decide for their own instance, and that's it. The other instances can make other decisions and no lemmy has to change platform (but maybe instance).
EXACTLY
They are taking their ball and going home
You have Beehaw content that was synced before they defederated.
Federation isn't accessing remote content on remote instances, it's content mirroring. So, anything that was mirrored before Beehaw defederated will stay exactly where it is. You just won't see any updates to it.
At least, not from Beehaw.
It's weird because I still see posts from the News@beehaw in my feed.
Source: https://lemmy.world/post/168259
Basically we can post new content, but only people on lemmy.world can see it. It doesn't get sent to any other instance. Any old posts will still be there but any new interactions will not get sent outside of lemmy.world.
So for those who know this better, should Lemmy Kbin users look for alternative to these communities (games/gaming for me)
You should be looking at multiple communities on the same topic just as a matter of course. Single mega-communities really aught to be discouraged, since they actually crush meaningful engagement (most posts don't ever get seen, most comments don't ever get seen, etc.)
If you follow multiple communities on the same topic, you can get the same kind of constant content stream -- if that's what you're concerned about -- while also actually having your contributions noticed.
Plus, not having single points of failure is the lesson everyone should be taking away from Twitter and Reddit.
I don't believe any kbin instances have been de-federated by beehaw...
Yeah, but if people were intentionally being trolls, it stands to reason that they'll hop on the next available open registration site and begin their shenanigans there, getting us banned too.
From what I've seen, for the most part the KBin magazines have been great, but we've definitely got a few people that I've seen that might intentionally start harassing trans people for instance and if they make lives difficult for the beehaw mods, we might get banned too just by association.
Not necessarily. From what I understand, it's about lemmy/kbin not vetting users. Because they were a a more heavily moderated community (by design) it's harder for them to keep that standard with other federated instances. Instead of trying to combat the population increase platforms have received, they defederated while the "riff raff" gets sorted out. If they are willing to re-federate in the future, I'm sure they'll be back. It's just the influx of users makes it harder for their small team to moderate content.
This is how federation works, though. It's by design. If you are wanting to see that content, you are able to move to a different instance (or even beehaw, if they are still taking applications), or to one that is still federated with them.
Yeah, I don't really see this as a drama.
Beehaw and lemmy.world have different goals. Beehaw said that this isn't a permanent ruling nor a judgement on said communities - merely a practicality to meet their goals. Lemmy's moderation tools and the moderation staffs are just unable to keep up with the rate of new users currently.
The decision will be revisited in the future, when both of these things have time to catch up. It sucks, but neither side is wrong here.
Suppose there was a comment thread containing a back-and-forth conversation between a kbin.social user and a lemmy.world user. What would a user on beehaw.org see, given that they are federated with one but not the other?
Users on Beehaw would not see anything from Lemmy.world. If it's still federated with Kbin, then they would see that content.
Likewise, anyone on Lemmy.world would not see content or be able to access communities from Beehaw.
So for a Beehaw user, would they see all of the the Kbinner's comments and it would look as if they were talking to themselves? Or would they only see the top level Kbinner comment and nothing else (due to their instance not seeing the Beehaw comment and therefore not seeing children of that comment either)?
AFAIK, it depends on where this community originated in which this conversation happens.
- If it's a beehaw community: lemmy.world users can only talk to other lemmy.world users
- If it's a lemmy.world community: beehaw users can only talk to other beehaw users
- If it is hosted anywhere else: I give up, I cannot make sense of it.
Please notify me if someone knows the answer. I tried to understand it using this great explanation with examples.
I also wonder what would technically happen if beehaw users could not see comments from defederated instances in other instances. How would they see a back and forth? Would they see the same level of indentation? Would they see other users from federated instances replying to comments which do not exist?
Lol Lemmy has risen and fallen pretty quickly it seems.
Idk if I would say that this is a fall... it more highlights lemmy's robustness imo