The laws would allow terminally ill patients under specified conditions to end their lives with a doctor’s help.
On a brisk day at a restaurant outside Chicago, Deb Robertson sat with her teenage grandson to talk about her death.
She’ll probably miss his high school graduation. She declined the extended warranty on her car. Sometimes she wonders who will be at her funeral.
Those things don’t frighten her much. The 65-year-old didn’t cry when she learned two months ago that the cancerous tumors in her liver were spreading, portending a tormented death.
But later, she received a call. A bill moving through the Illinois Legislature to allow certain terminally ill patients to end their own lives with a doctor’s help had made progress.
Then she cried.
“Medical-aid in dying is not me choosing to die,” she says she told her 17-year-old grandson. “I am going to die. But it is my way of having a little bit more control over what it looks like in the end.”
That same conversation is happening beside hospital beds and around dinner tables across the country, as Americans who are nearing life’s end negotiate the terms with themselves, their families and, now, state lawmakers.
The flip side of our ability to prolong life more and more successfully is that we equip ourselves to extend suffering more and more unbearably.
Puritanical attitudes around the right to die will impact a vast majority of people in terrible ways that will largely get ignored as on the other end of it the victims have no voice and often the family is mourning and wants to move on or just doesn't even fully realize how terrible that end was.
But the doctors and medical staff...
The people I know well in those roles get upset when healthy patients take a turn for the worse and die when they had so much life before that. But by far the most upset I see them is when a family member of a patient decides because of beliefs to choose life prolonging options that are the equivalent of extended torture.
As our medical capabilities improve we really need to continually rethink just what it means to "do no harm."
My grandpa passed a year ago now, COPD. Likely honestly a heart attack after all the steroid meds for his lungs created heart problems including a heart aneurysm. When he was diagnosed way back in 2006 they told us he had 5 years if he was lucky, I didn't think he'd see me graduate HS. Well he had a lot more than 5 years in him but after about 2014 it was all shit. He started telling my grandma that he was ready to die, wanted to die, in 2018, he begged for it on hard nights. He tried to kill himself in 2021 and 2022. Both attempts left him strapped to a hospital bed "for his safety" as he struggled to breathe, he hadn't been able to reliably breathe laying on his back for several years by then but they didn't care as long as he lived.
I never felt anything but sympathy for him after those attempts. As someone with chronic lifelong asthma, I know how my end will go. I know what it's like to suffocate and struggle to breathe and in case anyone wonders, it fucking sucks. It's terrifying, it's slow, and you know it's coming. Panic is inevitable. He felt like that for nearly 10 fucking years. He told me once after it had gotten bad that he'd always felt so bad for me as a kid to have asthma but now he finally understood, he said I was so brave to have dealt with it for so long but in that moment I didn't feel brave I felt lucky. When I use my inhaler I can breathe again, for him it just made him struggle less. For a long time I wished he would die, my absolute favorite person on the planet, and I wanted them dead. It destroyed me mentally for years. When he finally did die it was horribly sad and also such a massive relief for everyone to know that at least he wasn't suffering anymore.
I say all this, partially to get it off my chest but mostly to say, if we are going to prolong life we need to also give people the option to check out. Life isn't life without quality of health, it's just suffering. Prolonging suffering makes use torturers, it's not a saving grace. If we have the capacity to do this for our pets then people deserve the same mercy.
Best thing to ask your doctor is what they would do in the same situation. They usually give you the bestg medical advice answer but their personal answer can be very different with what they have seen. Although some won't answer that question which is in itself a kind of answer.
We need a federal constitutional amendment of bodily autonomy. Abortions, tattoos, personal drug use, gender reassignment, plastic surgery, suicide, neuralink, etc. All the same issue: My body, fuck off. You can make it more complicated than that but it’s not.
It doesn’t matter whether you agree with face tattoos or not. Nobody is making you get one. It’s not your concern. An artist can choose not to give face tattoos, as a doctor can choose whether they want to give a vasectomy to a young child-free man. But the government should have no say about what a person is allowed to do or have done to their own body. The government can regulate to make it safer, but not disallow.
Though I mostly agree with you, I think its a more complicated issue than the picture you're painting.
If I want to kill myself, it's my life right? Only many times people get suicidal due to mental illness or hardship and don't really want to does it's more an "temporary issue", if you will, that can pass with time, or can be cured with medication, therapy, or resolving the situation that caused the suicidal thoughts. So government steps in and outright stop you. Euthanasia laws exist to make sure that people only end their lives when there is no way for the person to continue living without suffering, and it requires some bureaucracy.
Facial tattoos? Sure, do what you want but I think many people underestimate the issues that will enter their lives if they get them. It might cost you a great job, you ready for that? I'd say regulations for that should require like 30 days for you to think about what you are about to do..
Gender reassignments? Sure, but... At what age are we going to allow that? I've seen way too many people saying it's okay for any kid at 5 years old. I've seen some kids where at 5, it's pretty clear that yeah, this kid is different. I've also personally seen 10 year olds where it was clear that the parents were pushing it on the child and then the school and everything around the child jumped on the bandwagon and kept supporting the parents decision z not the child's decision.
Persona drug use, sure. There are more than enough drugs, however that WILL destroy your life. There is no good outcome for someone using meth, for example l, outside a medical treatment, perhaps. So you do outright forbid that. Same for opioids, or are you going to tell me that free availability of opioids is a good idea?
Vaccines, anyone? Thanks to anti scientific and illiterate conspiracy idiots, measles are back and brace yourself for polio. Those fuckers that spread this bullshit should be locked up for murder, IMHO. There is no personal choice with vaccines, you fucking take them, or you will cause the suffering of others around you so shut up and take them.
Hell, even things like seatbelts can, should, and must be forced by government because if you don't, you get the idiots believing that seatbelts are dangerous because "insert stupid story here" so I let my 5 year old in the front seat right next to me, both without seat belt going 120kmh down the freeway. People like that should have their kids taken away, honestly, because they can't be responsible for a cat, let alone a child.
Bodily autonomy is not as easy as it seems, a lot of idiots need to be protected from themselves, and the rest of us must be protected from those idiots too. By law.
Gender reassignments? Sure, but... At what age are we going to allow that? I've seen way too many people saying it's okay for any kid at 5 years old.
Doctors and medical professionals should decide whether they want to perform gender reassignments, not the government. The medical professionals all seems to agree that they won't perform a full gender reassignment until the patient is at least in their later teens. Anybody too young for gender reassignment is just being prescribed puberty blockers to give them more time to decide.
I don't see any problem with just leaving it in the hands of medical professionals. Yea, some people may say it's okay for 5 year olds to get a full gender reassignment, but those people aren't doctors, and the process can't really happen without a doctor involved.
Drugs can be regulated by availability, not by illegality of ingestion. It can be illegal to sell.
If circumcision is legal, gender reassignment should be as well. Both are voluntary genital surgeries that are medically unnecessary. I don’t agree with it, but it’s none of my business. That’s a decision for kids and their parents and doctors to make.
Seatbelts can be a condition of using public roads, same as the minimum drinking age of 21 is actually a condition for federal highway funding. Same for vaccines, you don’t have to but you can’t go to public school, get into stadiums, or fly in airplanes. And they should expect quarantine procedures in hospitals and higher health insurance, Do I think people should be vaccinated, absolutely, but if they don’t want to they should just face whatever repercussions are reasonable - but it doesn’t need to be illegal to be unvaccinated.
Like I said, you can make it more complicated, but I don’t think it is. Just because it’s legal, doesn’t mean it’s unregulated. The government can impose regs to make us safer and slow us down from trying to hurt ourselves, but they have no business imposing laws that limit a basic and fundamental human right, to decide what to do to their own body.
For suicide I would imagine a compassionate therapy rehab-like system. You get checked in and go through a few weeks, they try psychedelics or whatever might help you, and if you still want to when it’s through you get a permit and a lethal injection. Better than having people leap off bridges because they’re out of options. Or overdose on painkillers and burden the healthcare system. Or traumatize their family. By the way the government spends a lot of money on suicide barrier rails on bridges that could be better spent on treatment facilities like the one I’m describing.
I've been on opiates for the past decade and a half due to two failed surgeries. I'm not saying my life is perfect by any means, but I can guarantee that I'd be a worse parent and a lot less social without said opiates.
I do take tolerance breaks and I'm (usually) somewhat strict with my dosage, but still, it doesn't necessarily "ruin your life" even if you don't do all that.
Not arguing that it can't be addictive, however. It absolutely can, but it is also possible to live with it.
It would also be a lot easier if it wasn't completely bound to the current doctor you have to go through. Since my second surgery I've had ~12 different doctors, all with their own ideas about how things should be treated, and almost none of them have paid any attention to the fact that changing medication or dosages arbitrarily messes up my daily life every goddamn time. If I could just take care of it myself it'd be way less of a hassle.
Punishing people because they try to avoid pain is such a bad idea in the first place, as we'll do almost anything if it's bad enough.
Gender reassignments? Sure, but… At what age are we going to allow that? I’ve seen way too many people saying it’s okay for any kid at 5 years old. I’ve seen some kids where at 5, it’s pretty clear that yeah, this kid is different. I’ve also personally seen 10 year olds where it was clear that the parents were pushing it on the child and then the school and everything around the child jumped on the bandwagon and kept supporting the parents decision z not the child’s decision.
CONCERN TROLL DETECTED!
The universally agreed age is 18 at the youngest for the thing you call "Gender Reassignment", typically that refers to the surgery to turn one's "Outtie" into an "Innie", the youngest person ever to have this operation was 16 and had to go to Germany to accomplish it.
Personally seen 10 year olds having it pushed on them by the parents? First off, anecdotal evidence, second, this situation has never been confirmed to exist outside of one of those scam e-mails they send to old people... These "Wacky liberals forcing their kids to wear panties!" are a right wing boogeyman... judging on how you say Kilometers instead of Miles I'm guessing you're from the UK, a lot of anti-trans propaganda there
The only medical transition options for a child are medications to delay puberty, which are of course, reversible.
There's already a job related to this - Bioethics. It's complicated and also has to do with consent and state of mind for nearly every medical procedure, not just death.
Facial tattoos? Sure, do what you want but I think many people underestimate the issues that will enter their lives if they get them. It might cost you a great job, you ready for that? I'd say regulations for that should require like 30 days for you to think about what you are about to do..
In an actually decent society so long as it's not offensive it shouldn't matter what is on your face. Why does this stop you from getting a job? That's the issue right there. Then again in my ideal society at least capitalism and private businesses wouldn't exist in the first place.
Persona drug use, sure. There are more than enough drugs, however that WILL destroy your life. There is no good outcome for someone using meth, for example l, outside a medical treatment, perhaps. So you do outright forbid that. Same for opioids, or are you going to tell me that free availability of opioids is a good idea?
Chances are you are a hypocrite here anyway even if you don't realise it but ignoring that for now. Legalising even relatively dangerous things like opioids is necessary because ultimately people will do it anyway. By making it illegal or you are changing it where they get it from (clean, well regulated supply causing less damage vs buying stuff from criminal gangs), what effects it has on society (criminal gangs and lots of convicts), and how much you can actually help people.
Vaccines, anyone? Thanks to anti scientific and illiterate conspiracy idiots, measles are back and brace yourself for polio. Those fuckers that spread this bullshit should be locked up for murder, IMHO. There is no personal choice with vaccines, you fucking take them, or you will cause the suffering of others around you so shut up and take them.
People are going to hate this but I am not convinced about forcing treatment on people. Maybe if they have a recognized mental illness that makes them demonstrably irrational then I can understand it. I think COVID demonstrated that the concept of vaccine induced hurd immunity doesn't always hold up as even after mass vaccinations in countries where the vast majority got the vaccine you still see infections and sometimes deaths. It's better as an individual to have the vaccine, but as for benefiting other people? Seems pretty marginal now to be honest. I say this as someone who used to believe the whole concept of hurd immunity through vaccines. Maybe if we had more effective vaccines for covid...
Hell, even things like seatbelts can, should, and must be forced by government because if you don't, you get the idiots believing that seatbelts are dangerous because "insert stupid story here" so I let my 5 year old in the front seat right next to me, both without seat belt going 120kmh down the freeway. People like that should have their kids taken away, honestly, because they can't be responsible for a cat, let alone a child.
Seatbelts aren't a bodily autonomy issue, no one is entitled to a car or to drive. To think otherwise is terrible Americanism. Driving is a privilege not a right. Get it through your damn head!
My mom said the same thing most of her life. When it came down to it, (bone cancer in her hip) she asked to be cremated, and her ashes scattered somewhere she'd never been. That's hard to do, she's been a lot of places.
Personally given how fucked my brain is from mental unwellness, I'd like my remains to be studied for whatever I can provide to the future of modern medicine.
The dying and dead are great people to fight for, you get to name ANYTHING your heart desires and claim you're doing it for them.
The dying can contradict you and you can just blame it on delirium "See! They're so crazy from illness that they think they don't need me, that PROVES that they need me!", and the dead will quietly let you exploit them for sympathy!
For the last 10 years I have been saying this should be legal. As long as you are determined to be of sound mind and not influenced by anyone, then let them make the decision. You will have many arguments against it (religion, could be cured unexpectedly) but it's the patient's decision.
The only argument would be if doctors and nurses should assist. This is a huge argument against state sponsored executions. Maybe a device that can safely and painlessly assist the patient could be a resolution.
So what you are saying is that we need some of those suicide booths that they had in Futarama.
You bring up a good point that it would be hard to find many doctors or medical professionals willing to focus their careers on euthanasia, as it goes against their oaths.
I'm in agreement. My concern is that this gives people in control the ability to feign choice. "They wanted this route" when in reality, it was murder.
Just need some decent protections in place for things like these.
I agree, it needs to be a very strict and regulated process. No power of attorney or anything like that. The person needs to undergo a psychiatric evaluation by two or three psychiatrist that specializes in suicidal thoughts or self harm. It needs to be a somewhat long process. But, I don't want it to be a multi year process either.
In Canada, 2 doctors have to agree that the patient is of sound mind, wants Medical Assistance in Dying, and their condition meets the minimum legal threshold. I think that system has been working fairly well.
I work as an EEG tech. I see some really awful cases where there's no hope for a meaningful recovery. Lawmakers should be required to do a month of hospice/palliative care rounds before signing any legislation on right to die. There is so much misinformation and misunderstanding surrounding what that care entails. The patients I see often don't have the ability to make that choice and are left up on life preserving care for days to months at a time without any chance at meaningful recovery.
It should also be noted that these decisions primarily affect people who are too poor to afford to travel with their loved ones to places that currently allow assisted suicide. If you're wealthy you are able to die how you want.
All the jabronis in this thread with "being able to decide when you die is BAD actually" have clearly never had a loved one painfully and slowly waste away in a shitty hospital bed praying for death every day.
People should have the right to decide when they decide to end the game of life. They should be able to make this decision with a qualified medical professional, preferably one who specializes in end of life care.
But what about the pharmaceutical company shareholders? Don't they get any say in how long we need their products? Yes one person might be in terrible pain for years, but at least twelve people will make a lot of money.
With how much they can charge for every individual comfort, suicide will never be more profitable than suffering. It it was, we wouldn't be having these debates.
I'd support it for any nation with free healthcare. But people are now going to be choosing between being with their families and not bankrupting them. I would not doubt it would be used to justify insurance companies not covering terminally ill patients because they only cover death for the terminaly ill.
I'm permanently disabled with a degenerative condition. Once I'm just surviving and not living, I'd love the freedom of a painless end. I watched grandparents suffer, I've watched them be kept alive through machines and drugs, I listened to my grandfather beg me for death.... you'll never change my mind that assisted suicide for the terminally ill is the ethical choice.
Eh, I used to be all in favor of Right To Death laws, but when Canada passed theirs they started pushing the disabled and impoverished onto it, not just the terminally ill. Which is basically ethnic cleansing.
So while I understand the Slippery Slope argument is not a good one, I'm going to need to see some common sense restrictions before I could support this as fervently as I did before