France bans 'steak' and 'escalope' labels from vegetarian products
France bans 'steak' and 'escalope' labels from vegetarian products
The French government issued a decree Tuesday banning the term "steak" on the label of vegetarian products, saying it was reserved for meat alone.
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This is so stupid and a collosal waste of time. Do they really feel people are just so stupid they can't figure their stuff out for themselves?
Also, and I cant stress this enough, they are just wrong.
Not in France, but as a meat eater I am starting to get annoyed at misleading labelling. Can I eventually figure out that what's in my hands in the supermarket aisle is some sort of meat substitute? Sure, I'd like not waste my time though and others might be in a rush, distracted or you know mislead.
Have you come up with a great new meat free product? Awesome, find a catchy new namenand market it, you don't need to piggy bag on steak or bacon that have a pretty specific meaning to consumers.
Also, are you a rabid vegan that hates everything meat related? Why would you want to buy and eat something called bacon?
Edit: also you are correct that this is a colossal waste of time. Customers time. France and other countries with a gastronomic culture like italy take food and food related frauds pretty seriously. And IMO they are right. Want to sell some new experimental shit? Be my guest, as a customer I should be able to opt in, not have to opt out.
You seem to be a rabid meat eater that hates everything vegan related.
Nah just hate the approach. In fact I am all for alternative food, as long as they are labelled properly. I do come from a place that similarly to France, has a strong culture around food and I hate seeing people fucking around and talking about words as 'metaphores' and how about you read labels carefully.
As I mentioned elsewhere, vegetarians/vegans have more to lose by mislabelling than anyone else (would anyone like a vegan product that actually contains chicken eggs?)
But yeah, I am a meat eater. I had similar arguments in another platoform a long time ago about GMOs. Me being strongly of the opinion that they can live in a supermarket but clearly labelled, downvoted to oblivion too because fuck the customer they should just learn to read or trust the vendor that what's in their food is what they want to eat ( whatever their preference might be)
I would like to buy something called bacon because I like bacon? You can like meat and still be vegan. Most vegans are vegan because of animal cruelty and climate impact, not because they hate meat. I can only speak for my country, but here such products are all on the same shelf and are clearly labeled as vegetarian/vegan. It makes sense to call it vegan bacon or vegan steak because it clearly imitates the meat product and I don't want to have to decipher what it's supposed to be first.
Then buy bacon. Or go online and try to find some info about what could resemble bacon in your country/area. Don't see why all fucking people that have been buying bacon expecting to buy bacon now need to sift through other stuff to find, you know, bacon.
Doesn't really matter the reason why vegans are vegans. You made a choice, deal with it and I am not saying this in a snarky way, we shouldn't change the meaning orlf word and mislabel food because of your choice and your personal tastes that still lean towards bacon - I can't blame you for that BTW
I don't know where you shop, but Vegan shit has its own section here in Canada. For the frozen stuff, it's in the hippie aisle with the chia seeds and the quinoa.
I don't understand why you seem to be so angry about it. I won't buy "real" bacon because it's terrible for both climate and pigs.
Nobody is mislabeling food. Vegan bacon is the perfect term for a vegan bacon substitute and nobody ever bought something labeled "vegan bacon" and was then disappointed that it didn't contain meat. It's not like manufacturers try to deceive people. The stuff is clearly labeled as vegan and it's usually even sold from a different shelf.I don’t understand why you seem to be so angry about it. I won’t buy “real” bacon because it’s terrible for both climate and pigs.
I am not that sure that from a climate point of view, my steak that come from the farm down the road (who was raised in the grass the other side of the road) is worse than the avocado coming from Florida.
If you go to the industrial production, in the end there are no difference in the outcome, only in the way you arrive there.
Nobody is mislabeling food. Vegan bacon is the perfect term for a vegan bacon substitute and nobody ever bought something labeled “vegan bacon” and was then disappointed that it didn’t contain meat. It’s not like manufacturers try to deceive people.
Fine, but because we cannot agree to call things with its proper name ?
The stuff is clearly labeled as vegan and it’s usually even sold from a different shelf.
True, so I suppose that I can come up with some kind of "beyond cabbage" made from animal products and call it cabbage, right ? After all people just need to do is read the label...
I'm just going to drop this here.
Transportation is such a small factor in food production is pretty much negligible. Meat always loses vs plants regarding climate impact.
Fine, but because we cannot agree to call things with its proper name ?
Yes, that's all I'm saying. Bacon is Bacon, vegan bacon is vegan bacon.
True, so I suppose that I can come up with some kind of "beyond cabbage" made from animal products and call it cabbage, right ? After all people just need to do is read the label...
If your meat cabbage abomination is labeled correctly and not sold in the vegetable section of the supermarket, sure, go for it. I doubt it would be a successful product, but go for it.
I’m just going to drop this here.
Transportation is such a small factor in food production is pretty much negligible. Meat always loses vs plants regarding climate impact.
Probably, I am not able to read what the picture say (for some reason is too small)
Fine, but because we cannot agree to call things with its proper name ?Yes, that’s all I’m saying. Bacon is Bacon, vegan bacon is vegan bacon.
Except the word bacon means "meat from the back or sides of a pig, often eaten fried in thin slices" and the word vegan means "a person who does not eat or use any animal products, such as meat, fish, eggs, cheese, or leather" (definitions from the Cambrigde dictionary), so maybe if you don't want to change the language you need to come up with some other name, which have not this contradiction in itself ( and personally I think it would be better from a marketing point of view)
True, so I suppose that I can come up with some kind of “beyond cabbage” made from animal products and call it cabbage, right ? After all people just need to do is read the label…
If your meat cabbage abomination is labeled correctly and not sold in the vegetable section of the supermarket, sure, go for it. I doubt it would be a successful product, but go for it.
Well, I can say the same about the vegan meat abomination.
It makes sense to call it vegan bacon or vegan steak because it clearly imitates the meat product and I don’t want to have to decipher what it’s supposed to be first.
It makes sense to call it sex because it clearly imitates sex and I don't want to decipher what "masturbation" means first.
Words have fucking meaning. They need to have for communication to not break down. Don't get your recipe book in a twist if people like their meaning to stay the same.
What is the meaning of steak? Is it enough to kill some animal and write steak on the package? Or do you care which animal it was? If you don't buy [generic steak] you likely would want to know which animal the flesh is from and it requires another word to describe it. Horse steak is as fine of a descritption as saitan steak.
This https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/steak
And I can tell which animal it was by just looking at it both the look of the meat and the cut. Unless it's not meat and it's designed to look like a (usually beef) steak, in which case I might be induced to think it's a beef steak. Which is the whole point here, France is regulating so this does not happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steak
Steaks are cut from animals including cattle, bison, buffalo, camel, goat, horse, kangaroo,[1][2] sheep, ostrich, pigs, turkey, and deer, as well as various types of fish, especially salmon and large fish such as swordfish, shark, and marlin.
So you can distinct between all these animals flesh but you feel challanged to read "plant based meat"
Oh good lord, you all have the same edgy argument on this thread. Are you gonna tell me that I need to learn how to read next, or that I am an idiot, and that the problem is just me?
Millions of people buy their meat as I just described. They expect to be able to do so moving forward. If youbare used to grab a head of broccoli and move on why do you need someone to start questioning how you chose it, how do you really knownits not cabbage, and really don't you even read if it's organic or where it comes from?
Yes in many cases the label can be misleading. A whole country just legislated about it. I'm not french but agree this is the right decision.
I'm all for veganism and vegetarianism. And for plant based products. I also like to fuckong know what I am buying without having to dissect it.
I’m all for veganism and vegetarianism. And for plant based products. I also like to fuckong know what I am buying without having to dissect it.
Then go vegan and learn how you have to truly dissect food and read the ingredients to find if it contains something like pig bone powder.
If you don't want to then legislate for a label like the (V)egan label and put it on all products made from animals, I would still support you. Telling a vegan how hard it is to read ingredients is weak.
No I'm not going vegan we should both be able to make out food choices and not have to second guess. That's my whole fucking point about not mislabelling food.
I'm telling a vegan that reading ingredients could be even harder if we don't regulate and use the right words. The fact that you had it hard doesn't mean everyone else should.
I’m telling a vegan that reading ingredients could be even harder if we don’t regulate and use the right words.
The ingredient list is already regulated. We could make it easier for all with a "animal product" label but at the moment it is only the animal industry which is lobbying for restrictive product names. I am against restrictions of names but in favor for a clear declaration of ingredients.
Words do have meaning, but that meaning is not set in stone. I'd argue that plant based sausages, schnitzel, burgers, steaks, bacon etc. are still just that. It's more about the form factor than what exactly it's made of.
It should of course clearly be stated on the package what's inside.
I don't see how "Vegan Bacon" might be a problem.You'd argue that in France as a vendor, and you'd go to jail. Other countries will follow soon and I can see France Italy and Spain to push for this as a European law.
Not a problem for you doesn't mean that it's okay for all customer of a country or of the eu, it can be misleading.
It’s more about the form factor than what exactly it’s made of.
It makes sense to call it a woman because it clearly has a hole and I don't want to decipher what "fleshlight" means.
EDIT: Oh, du sprichst deutsch. Bratling. Is das denn so schwer.
I don't think you argue in good faith. Also, Bratling is not a good word for many vegan meat substitutes.
Oh I do I'm just being crass. Let me try again:
It makes sense to call it a beer because it comes in a bottle and I don't want to decipher what "alcoholic soda with artificial flavour" means.
...are there any substitutes that are neither Bratling nor Saitan (which is well-established?). Don't buy the latter and make the former myself so I wouldn't know. In my mind substitutes have no place in proper recipes but that's a personal thing, a Bratling doesn't try to be meat it just tries, and succeeds, at being a Frikadelle -- something that you can put on a bun, or eat cold, or drench in sauce, really it's astonishing how interchangeable the two are precisely because a good Bratling doesn't try to imitate a product, but replicate a function.
There are tons of products that neither qualify as Bratling nor are made from seitan. Seitan is specifically wheat protein. Many things are based on soy, peas, beans etc.
Also, why would I use an umbrella term like "seitan product" when I could just call the vegan sausage a vegan sausage?
They do have a meaning, yes. And ultraprocessed vegan steaks fulfill the general functions of a steak, so I don't see what the fuss is all about. There are different kinds of actual meat steaks, and they can't be used interchangeably. I wouldn't eat a chicken "steak tartare", for instance. So differences are allowed as long as the general description matches. And I think we'll need to agree to disagree, but I have enough imagination to qualify the vegan sewage roll as sausage, because they can be used as substitutes for meat sausages in a meal.
You language prescriptivists are fighting a lost battle anyway. If people call it a steak, it is a steak, the Académie Française be damned. Languages aren't decided centrally. The language's speakers collectively make it what it is.
Brigaded by vegans. Would love to see a thread about products labelled as vegan actually containing meat or eggs but only listed in the fine print. Their mouths would he froting about the actual.meaning of the word vegan and the importance of not mislabelling profucts
The word "meat" describes physical objects that fulfill a specific function, for which you can find substitutes. Sausage is an oblong object made of a casing filled with protein. Steak designates a (honestly delicious) slab of protein.
Dictionaries haven't caught up with modern uses of terms like "steak" or "sausage", but it doesn't really matter, because they don't decide language centrally. Their role is to document how language is at a given point in time. And the consensus for the majority is that a steak is meat, but that is not set in stone. Things are changing. A growing proportion of people has started calling vegan sausage vegan sausage. Dictionaries might eventually follow the majority, if that majority ever materializes.
Vegan foods mean, at the very least, that a food contains no animal products. Eggs don't fit the bill, by any stretch of imagination. It's a straight-up lie, like saying an American Camembert is an AOP Camembert de Normandie. I don't think you made a strong case here.
And look, I haven't adopted all the newspeak myself. I don't like the word "vegan steak", because it strays too far from my definition of what steak is. Fake sausage and milk work for me. But my point is that my own stance doesn't matter. It's what the majority thinks that matters.
Do you buy [generic animal steak] or do you buy cattle, bison, buffalo, camel, goat, horse, kangaroo, sheep, ostrich, pigs, turkey, or deer steak?
People sometimes act like that the description of steak or milk (cow, human, goat, cat) is unambiguous. I have never seen plant based food which does not declare it like [plant based steak]
I am all in for clear description of food and a big label if it contains animal suffering and the destruction of the eco system or if it is plant based. If you don't care which animal parts you buy as long as "meat" or "steak" is any death animal I think you are in the minority.
Do you buy [generic animal steak] or do you buy cattle, bison, buffalo, camel, goat, horse, kangaroo, sheep, ostrich, pigs, turkey, or deer steak?
In Italy (and as far as I remember even in France) they are divided into different aisles, so in a certain aisle you will find only meat from a certain animal.
People sometimes act like that the description of steak or milk (cow, human, goat, cat) is unambiguous. I have never seen plant based food which does not declare it like [plant based steak]
It is not the point, I also never see a plant based food not declared, but I think it is right to not be able to call "milk" what you get from a almond.
I am all in for clear description of food and a big label if it contains animal suffering and the destruction of the eco system or if it is plant based. If you don’t care which animal parts you buy as long as “meat” or “steak” is any death animal I think you are in the minority.
Or maybe we just think that words has a meaning.
Or maybe we just think that words has a meaning.
I guess you have a strong opinion on calling a bond between two man or two woman marriage?
Not particularly. For what I think is the marriage is, I simply don't care and, oddly enough, the law about the civil marriage cite the words "husband" and "wife" only once, the other times it use the word "consorts" that here is neutral, and in the context it simply mean "both of you". So even the law seem to don't care (mostly) about the sex of the people getting married.
So it was always the way that same sex marriage was accepted and nobody had to fight against people who claim "but the bible ..." "It is between a man a women and nothing else" "next you want to marriage you dog", right? There where never people who fought to change the system because the system and the laws have always been perfect?
So it was always the way that same sex marriage was accepted and nobody had to fight against people who claim “but the bible …” “It is between a man a women and nothing else” “next you want to marriage you dog”, right?
That's not what I said. I just stated what I think and what the law say in Italy. I am not responsible for what other people think.
There where never people who fought to change the system because the system and the laws have always been perfect?
If we are talking about the marriage, I can agree with you, in fact in Italy we have other forms of unions (which don't make any difference between the sexes) to substitute the marriage which for the State are like a marriage. Note that even if conceptually they are the same thing, we call with different names exactly because in Italy the marriage is way too often identified with the religious one, which for the law is void (ie if you are only married relligiously, which means the 3 law article I cited are not read, then for the State you are not married). We have not tried to change the meaning of a specific word.
Has the defintion of unione civile changed?
Mentioned in another thread. I buy meat cuts the same way I buy a head of broccoli, pass by the aisle look at it and grab it. And so does the fucking majority of population that are busy and would like to continue to do so and not need to read the fine printing
I can identify a beef steak from pork, lamb, chicken and horse by the look of the meat and by the cut. I do so routinely and so do everyone that shops for meat.
The same way I can tell a head of broccoli from say cauliflower.
A meat replacement beef stake looks exactly like a beef steak. If it also says steak on the packaging people can just grab it and go. Definition of mislabelling.
Now, I've already covered this in other comments so if you are about to say this is my fucking problem and that I should learn to read. No, this is every customer's problem. People are busy, elderly people might not bring their glasses to the supermarket and more in general the EU is on the side of the customer so no, company that sell something should label it clearly particularly if it could be deceiving.
If you are about to give me the poor meat eaters, treated unwell consider that vegetarians and vegans have more to lose. What if the tables turn and dodgy vendors are allowed to label their product vegan friendly even tho6they might not be.
If it also says steak on the packaging people can just grab it and go. Definition of mislabelling.
I have never seen just [Steak] on any package. You have proven that you know words by writingen them. I reckon you can read them too.
Would it be fine for you to start selling dog steak just labeld as steak? They take great care and pride to label it correctly https://www.elwooddogmeat.com/ They make sure you know what you get because it is a premium product. If you just buy storebrand animal meat and don't care about who it was I can't help you.
I have never seen just [Steak] on any package. You have proven that you know words by writingen them. I reckon you can read them too.
I don't know where you buy your food, but here I can clearly see meat labeled as "steak" in my supermarket.
Ah yes you have proven that I can read therefore it is okay to mislabel products across a whole country and potentially mislead other people. Checkmate.
Or how about we protect customers and try not to mislabel products?
What's with the dog meat? I believe it's illegal everywhere in Europe isn't it? Otherwise, just meat so yeah technically a steak.
Meat eaters are being opressed the same way as christians. This has to stop! Normal people can’t be mislead to make better dietary choices, they need their god given ability to excercise their rights in being a huge burden on the environment!
Mate, you might think your highly processed piece of crap is a better dietary choice. Fine I have no problem with that.
What I am asking is not being misled into buying it as a steak.
And if it's so superior, why do you need to call it a steak, use some imagination and come up with a name on par with its superiority.
The word steak is not your property. I can do what I want with it and you don’t need to understand. Im sorry it hurts you so much.
True, but it has a meaning.
Sure you can do what you want. Go ahead and try to sell your processed crap as steak in france and let's see how it goes.
Firstly I am a non meat eater confused when I am seeing steaks labelled as meat, which I expect to be describing nourishing food in general (https://www.etymonline.com/word/meat). Similarly I am confused seeing dairy milk labelled as just milk when I seek certain saps and other reagents for my alchemy.
Secondly you obviously misunderstand what "rabid vegans" want or their goals. I am one, and I quite enjoy the taste of meat. I did not stop eating it because it was not pleasurable, I stopped eating it because I have worked in the processes that lead to it being neatly packaged in supermarkets and there is a rather alarming amount of suffering involved. So frankly I am very much interested in things that lack that suffering but taste the same, I would sacrifice my left hand to a dark god if it would lead to convincing crustacean flesh alternatives.
I love meat and think that this rule is stupid. The metaphors are used to describe what taste and texture you might expect from a product, which makes sense especially for people who just switched and want to emulate the taste pallet they are used to.
Except that France regulates their food industry very strictly and rightly so. What you think it's a metaphor, it's actually a word with a specific meaning.
Try to emulate Champagne and sell it as a Champagne in europe, and then try to convince the judge that you just intended that as a metaphore and wanted to emulate the taste pallet.
Champagne is a funny example because colloquially people will often use that term to describe any sparkling wine. And as said before - I disagree that this specific regulation is very useful to anyone, except maybe producers. Most people understand what coconut milk is.
The only funny thing is that you call shitty wine champagne COLLOQUIALLY with your mates and miss the point that this whole thread is about food being sold to customers and actually labelled wrong, something that is taken pretty seriously in the EU, and rightly so.
Want to continue talking about champagne in your after work plans with Debbie from the second floor? Be out guest but you can't sell something that is not champagne as such.
And BTW this is a good thing for all of us consumers of the union. Particularly vegans and vegetarians, the main target audience of these replacement products. You wouldn't want their products accidentally mislabelled and chicken eggs or animal meat ending in products labelled as vegan?
The only funny thing is that you call shitty wine champagne
You seem to be a calm and reasonable person.
Maybe instead of screaming you could actually try to explain what is a problem of labeling a vegan product as vegan steak. For customer it's rather clear that it's vegan and he also gets a general idea of taste and texture that the producer was at least going for. So what exact problem does arrive from having a vegan steak?
You wouldn’t want their products accidentally mislabelled and chicken eggs or animal meat ending in products labelled as vegan?
If you planing on producing meat that tastes like banana, I don't see any problem to lable it as meat banana.
Maybe instead of screaming you could actually try to explain what is a problem of labeling a vegan product as vegan steak
Confusing and misrepresenting. Steak is meat.
For customer it's rather clear that it's vegan Except that in some cases it's not.
So what exact problem does arrive from having a vegan steak? Again confusing and misrepresenting for customers. The reason why France legislated about this BTW, let's not pretend it's hard to grasp
if you planing on producing meat that tastes like banana, I don't see any problem to lable it as meat banana.
No I am talking about a processed vegan food that is called 'vegan something' but that it turns out, has chicken eggs and maybe even meat in the list of ingredients. Just because someone might argue around the meaning of 'vegan' the way we are doing for steak, and legislation in some countriesight not protect the meaning of vegan in food names.
Just to be very clear. Nothing against vegans or vegan food. I am for clarity when it comes to customers, particularly in the food industry.
Confusing and misrepresenting. Steak is meat.
That's why you put vegan before it. Like coconut milk, nothing confusing at all - was used for really long time and nobody ever had any problems with that term.
Except that in some cases it’s not.
How is it not clear if it's called vegan steak? What is not clear about it?
Again confusing and misrepresenting for customers. The reason why France legislated about this BTW, let’s not pretend it’s hard to grasp
Or maybe to protect their meat industry? The same reason Champagne is a protected name. Lets not pretend that's difficult to understand.
No I am talking about a processed vegan food that is called ‘vegan something’ but that it turns out, has chicken eggs and maybe even meat in the list of ingredients. Just because someone might argue around the meaning of ‘vegan’ the way we are doing for steak, and legislation in some countriesight not protect the meaning of vegan in food names.
But that is just a wrong analogy. You are not calling a steak a carnivore stake or do you? So an example of a vegan food wood be a banana. You don't call it vegan banana because that's the expectation, like with a steak. You ad a word to make clear that it's different from what you normally would expect - so vegan steak or meat banana. In both cases it's rather clear how it's meant.
Just to be very clear. Nothing against vegans or vegan food. I am for clarity when it comes to customers, particularly in the food industry.
I could not care less, since I'm not vegan - I just don't like stupid rules.
EDIT:
This discussion is incredibly funny from Germany since we have a traditional sausage that is called Leberkäse or Fleischkäse, which is translated as liver-cheese or meat-cheese. There is no cheese involved at all.
For starters the word vegan is relatively new and not widely adopted by the general population. Older generations are likely not familiar with it and once again we are trying to put on the customer the onus of disambiguation. On the other hand they are familiar with the word steak, and associate that with an animal cut.
While your suggestion is intriguing, fake meat producers could just come up with a name for their products that doesn't confuse people so you don't need to put 'vegan' in front of it. Which is what France is doing and other countries will follow soon.
For starters the word vegan is relatively new and not widely adopted by the general population.
That would be a somehow valid argument if true. But the more the word is used the faster people will understand what it means, so this problems solves by itself.
disambiguation.
Again, nothing ambiguous about vegan steak. It's self explanatory concept, something that supposed to taste like stake but is vegan. The best way to convey this information is to call it a vegan stake. The only way to be confused about it, if you don't know the word vegan (this will become better the more it's used) or if you don't read the labels, but than labeling differently wont help either.
fake meat producers could just come up with a name for their products that doesn’t confuse people so you don’t need to put ‘vegan’ in front of it.
Fake meat products, are targeted at people who want something that taste like meat. Calling something vegan meat - is the best way to communicate that concept. And again it's not that meat-cheese (Fleischkäse) has been around for long time and we are all still fine, nobody is up in arms against it - the same goes for coconut milk.