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Yes to all but a right to a job. People shouldn’t have jobs. It’s not natural.
Humans find jobs for themselves and their community all the time, but not fucking bullshit jobs like data entry technician or call center technician.
I fucking hate cleaning, but I will happily help a friend or family member clean their house or their apartment because we thrive in a community.
Not getting the humanity squeezed out of us for a few cents more.
Those are chores, and caring for your loved ones. They are not "jobs."
Someone has to grow the food. That's a job.
Gardening is totally something people do for free.
Subsistance farming is not what I would call gardening. The amount of planting, tending, harvesting and canning required to feed a family of 4 is a full-time job during the growing season. Nevermind all the other homemaking chores.
So get robots to do it. I never said anything about subsistence farming. But if we keep up with the idea of everyone needing a job we’ll never get to a place where nobody has to work.
We’ve already automated so much of it that just 1% of the population farming grows more than enough food for everyone.
I'm with you, and I agree. But the 1% doing all the hard work are going to have a real problem with the communists choosing "art therapy" as their activity. I think automation is the future.
Okay, so reduce it by another order of magnitude and everybody does a long weekend farming every ten years
Neither is the Internet or the computer you are using, or the highly developed efficient language you are speaking, nor the clothes on your back, the medical care you've received, the worldwide logistics that enable you to have a nice miso soup, or maybe a slice of cheese every once in a while, or even the engineering, math, and, science that allow anything and everything to exist in our world, yet people throughout history have worked very hard to make those things for you.
If you don't want to contribute back, that's totally fine, just know that the rest of humanity is working hard to keep you alive even if you don't.
Someone has to dispose of your trash, and it doesn't seem like it's gonna be you.
Do not assume I am here because I wish to be
Jobs are fine. It’s for-profit companies that’s the problem. Why does a company need profits (outside of maybe emergency capital)?
No company needs to profit by billions/trillions.
Jobs are fine
For you maybe
Actually yes. I love my job. ❤️
I love mine, too.
I'd still rather not be doing it. Why else do they give us vacation time?
Okay, then why weekends? Why ever leave our jobs if we love them so much?
You need jobs to have public services, public infrastructure, and both essential and nonessential goods. The overexploitation of workers and the lack of democratic ownership of the workers in businesses is the problem. Profit can still be made and go towards wages and back into the business, even better when subsidies and workers protection/rights are guaranteed federally. We can't have a functioning society without jobs
Government can do a lot of that and the workers there are still exploited and hate their jobs
Public refers to government, yes. The difference is a socialist mode of production where the workers own, in a democratic organization, all the decisions of the business. In this kind of organization the workers decided democratically what they are paid, what trajectory the business has, and everything else. The goal is not one of maximizing profit year over year as in the capitalist mode of production. That's why I differentiated exploitation and over-expoitation. I'm using the marxian definition of exploitation. Here, Richard Wolff has a comprehensive explanation of the different modes of production and how that impacts the workers.
I think it could be argued that you have a right to a "purpose". For some people that may be a job. And some may choose to not have a purpose. But no one should be denied a purpose if they want one - even if it involves goals they will never succeed at.
Almost as if that mazlow guy had a point or something
That sounds like a hobby, not a job
If you want to do something but don’t have to in order to survive, that’s a hobby.
IMO hobbies are different. I do a hobby because I enjoy the activity, but it doesn't necessarily give me purpose. A job (or more specifically a career) gives me purpose even if I don't always enjoy the day to day work. At a higher level I do enjoy my job, and it gives me a reason to get up each day and tackle problems I otherwise wouldn't seek out.
I've often said if I won't the lottery and didn't need to work to survive, I'd still take a job (or at least full time volunteer) because it's not natural to sit around and just do whatever activities attract your attention each day. It's important to be challenged and pushed to do things you otherwise wouldn't tackle.
I dropped my IT career to work at a hardware store. That was my retirement plan, and I'm in no shape to quit working, but I had to do something to get out of my rut. Depression was killing me, body and mind. Pay sucks, and no I'm not dying to get dressed and go in, but my physical and mental health is quickly improving.
Also, I'm learning new skills, learning more about how the world works, and best of all, learning from talking to customers about their projects. Hell, I can wander over to lumber and my coworkers will school me all day long on the projects I need to build.
LOL, my manager and I, in our 50s, are literally throwing rocks while the 20-something pudgy kids stand around staring. Guess who's moving up, getting respect and perks?
Lots of hobbies have times where you don't enjoy the work, or you screw something up, or something just won't work and you walk away in frustration. Video games are basically designed to be frustrating so you feel accomplishment.
If we didn't need to work we could have bigger, more complicated hobbies, with more opportunities for frustration.
But if we didn't have to do them in the first place why would we call them jobs?
Yep. These dumbasses that think no one should have to work should be stranded on a tropical island, à la "Lord of the Flies". LOL, they'll either be working a "job" or they'll get their asses beat or thrown in a volcano.
You replied to the wrong comment, but you're totally wrong about how the Lord of the Flies actually panned out in real life. Turns out the children worked together to divide the work needed to survive between each other, so nobody did too much. The kids survived for fifteen months and even cared for one of them when they broke a leg.
I don't disagree that some work needs to be done: If I want a snack I'll need to walk to the kitchen. But it should be as little as is necessary. If someone can automate themselves out of a job they should get their salary for life and a million dollar prize, because it means nobody has to do that work anymore.
Plus the only thing most political parties agree on is more jobs and that makes it immediately suspect to me.
If you haven’t read it already, a book for the idler:
https://files.libcom.org/files/[Tom_Hodgkinson]_How_To_Be_Idle(Bookos.org).pdf
I will have read it soon, thanks for the tip!
I developed complex alarm systems.I bought a timer plug, and set it to turn on my coffee maker and also the record player, on which I had placed my loudest record, It 's Alive by The Ramones
This is me but it was "Stunt" by Barenaked Ladies, which opens with this
You're contesting by posting the real-life version of events vs. the fiction I posted? One of these things is not like the other.
Yes, I posted in the wrong thread. Sorry.
Either nothing humans do is natural, or everything is.
Democracy and human rights aren't natural. Capitalism isn't natural. Or they both are.
People do like to work, the caveat being that they generally don't want to work with virtually nothing to show for it. The modding community is massive, and they almost never get paid. People love to bake, or draw, or garden, or volunteer, all without fiduciary compensation.
But when people make it where they have to "get a job" to survive, the love of the labor disappears.
Costco has a low turnover rate because they’re paid a living wage. Hell, even (ugh) Chick-fil-A pays their teenage employees decently.
I agree that most people absolutely want to work; the two most important factors are choice of labor and not being treated like shit - either by compensation or other mistreatment.
Those are hobbies, not jobs. That’s why they recommend them to retired people.
You're so close to to the point.
So are you.
Who's going to provide your food, shelter and clothing if no one is working?
Yes, if you want to live in a society, you must contribute. Even if you live in a village with no government or economic system, people have to haul water, catch fish, grow crops, make charcoal, weave baskets, 1,000 other jobs.
And to care for the people too elderly or disabled to care for themselves, you must work harder than merely providing for yourself.
Oh, were you thinking rich people could just give us money? Where do you think they get that money? Hint: It comes from our labor, which you propose shouldn't exist.
If you don't like any of that, go homestead. Dick Proenneke left for Alaska in his 50s, single-handedly built a nice cabin and lived there alone for 30 years.
Ol' Dick didn't have a filthy job, unless you count survival. If a middle-aged man can do it with 60s tech and gumption, so can you!
Who’s going to provide your food, shelter and clothing if no one is working?
It's amazing humans were able to build civilization without anyone providing food, shelter, or clothing. We're so lucky we evolved on a planet full of microwave TV dinners and polyester pant suits and ranch homes with durable vinyl siding.
If you don’t like any of that, go homestead.
That's the plan.
They did all that by completing jobs. Explain how to do all that with no one working as was the request.
They did all that by solving problems. As any gamer knows, solving problems is not necessarily work.
They weren't forced to be somewhere, at some time, to complete a task dictated to them by someone else, with no say in how it's done or when it's done, or any reward for figuring out how get the same result automatically, under threat of not being able to feed, house, or clothe themselves.
And I'd have a lot less of a problem with all of this if they'd let me feed, house, and clothe myself without needing to own property.
Don't forget the magical machines we found to shitpost! I found mine in a creek, all natural PC and software to go with it.
Free internet too! OK, there were some guys to lay the cable line, and admin the network, and handle customer service, and pull permits so we're not living in anarchy, and... I can't go on.
It's a miracle! No one worked to provide any of this! And if they did, I'm sure they loved every moment of it.
Signed: Guy who broke his ass bringing y'all the first cable internet installs and updated software for Y2K so you can laugh about it being no big deal.
Given enough time nerds would have invented the internet just to argue with each other, with or without financial compensation
