Helldivers 2 director weighs in on Elden Ring: Shadow of the Erdtree's difficulty: 'A game for everyone is a game for no one'
Helldivers 2 director weighs in on Elden Ring: Shadow of the Erdtree's difficulty: 'A game for everyone is a game for no one'
The difficulty is just part of the charm.
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This is such a terrible take. You can have difficulty accessibility options in difficult games (eg. Celeste, Furi) and it doesnt make the game worse. This is just gatekeeping bs
Accessibility is an extremely important topic and Elden Ring could absolutely be better in that aspect.
Difficulty, however, is unrelated to accessibility. Disabled people should be able to play difficult games -- that's what accessibility is about, letting people with disabilities experience the same content as everyone.
Honestly how is this gatekeeping? That word gets slinged around a lot and it using it here seems like it diminishes the real situations where the word is useful. So they're limiting access to the game from people who what? It's hard for everyone, they're not being selective about the difficulty somehow.
Honestly how is this gatekeeping?
"Gatekeeping: the activity of controlling, and usually limiting, general access to something."
The lack of difficulty sliders make the game inaccessible to people who have no ability or desire for the unforgiving experience, nor any ability/desire to "Git Gud Scrubs". It's intentionally left out to exclude those people. That makes it "gatekeeping" by the definition for the word.
This is substantiated by the fact that a mode to make the game easier and a mode to make the game harder are in the top 10 downloaded mods for Elden Ring. If you leave out the loaders and modutils, those same mods are top-5. This is basically unheard of in most games.
You can argue that you approve of this gatekeeping, but it's silly to die on the "it's not really gatekeeping" hill.
Soooo a game, which is not paid for nor developed by the community, and is rather purchased with the knowledge that it is a difficult game which will require ample skill to surpass its many challenges, should put in difficulty sliders despite them fundamentally going against the very nature of the game itself?
Soooo a game, which is not paid for nor developed by the community, and is rather purchased with the knowledge that it is a difficult game which will require ample skill to surpass its many challenges, should put in difficulty sliders despite them fundamentally going against the very nature of the game itself?
Fucking YES it should. I didn't buy ER until I was 100% certain it had an easymode mod. So I got what I wanted out of it despite them shoving both their middles fingers at me and telling me I'm not worthy to buy their product because they're intentionally hiding the good part (the story) behind gameplay I didn't want. I'm still pissed that I wasted my money buying Bloodborne. You want me to get over that, cut me a check.
As I said to the other hater, what is with the ER-fanboys turning the chat into full-on-reddit level bitchfest defending it? Why don't you just let me have my valid opinions? I know, heaven forbid there exists someone who has an opinion that doesn't match yours.
Learning to play the guitar or code also doesn't have a difficulty slider, but people of all abled-ness manage it anyways. It's a matter of patience and practice just like any other skill.
But this particular skill has in-game mechanics like leveling up, upgrading equipment, and summoning up to two whole extra players to do the work for you. Then there's mods...
Learning to play the guitar or code also doesn’t have a difficulty slider, but people of all abled-ness manage it anyways.
Games are about entertainment. They're not a career. Nobody is paying me to play a Fromsoft game. More importantly, nobody is gatekeeping the entertainment, immersion, and story of music or coding behind me being able to "Git Gud".
And let's look at music and coding. Since I can speak a bit to both. For music, OF COURSE there are difficulty sliders. When I took recorder back in school, they had 2 different versions of many songs. When I first learned Christmas music on piano, I learned special "simplified" tracks for the songs. I never "Got Gud" at music, but I still got to the end of the book.
And coding. Coding is the opposite of a Fromsoft game. You're surrounded by mountains of tools that try to make it easier. When I bring in a junior developer, I'm not giving them some unforgiving code challenge to power through. Maybe they'll never be good enough to design a specialized cache or optimize queries. So I give them the things they CAN do, and hold their hand so they always succeed. Junior devs don't ever fail, not because they "git gud" but because I set them up to succeed by this little difficulty slider called "how hard is this ticket to do and how much help do they need from me?"
And let’s look at music and coding. Since I can speak a bit to both. For music, OF COURSE there are difficulty sliders. When I took recorder back in school, they had 2 different versions of many songs. When I first learned Christmas music on piano, I learned special “simplified” tracks for the songs. I never “Got Gud” at music, but I still got to the end of the book.
Some songs have an easier version and a harder version, but being able to play a Christmas song on a piano doesn't mean you can demand to be able to play Korsakovs Flight of the bumblebee on a piano. You just can't play it, you have to "git gud" to play that song. And games are like songs. Some songs are easier, some song are harder. Some harder songs can be made easier, some can't without losing an important part of the song.
And coding. Coding is the opposite of a Fromsoft game. You’re surrounded by mountains of tools that try to make it easier. When I bring in a junior developer, I’m not giving them some unforgiving code challenge to power through. Maybe they’ll never be good enough to design a specialized cache or optimize queries. So I give them the things they CAN do, and hold their hand so they always succeed. Junior devs don’t ever fail, not because they “git gud” but because I set them up to succeed by this little difficulty slider called “how hard is this ticket to do and how much help do they need from me?”
I feel like that analogy brings in an entirely different concept, the concept of a sherpa. You're sherpaing junior developers by giving them easier problems and giving them tips on harder problems. But a Junior dev won't magically know how to build a 3D engine or a compiler or something for an embedded system (just to give a few random examples). They still need to "git gud" to become a senior developer and be able to do those things. In fact I'd argue that software development as a profession is one of the closest professions to Fromsoft games, because you always need to learn new concepts or tools or ways to do things. Software development always challenges you the same way Fromsoft games challenge you. You can't just take a problem and be "could I get the easy mode version of this problem". And much like you sherpa junior developers so they could get better, some people sherpa others through Fromsoft games so those people could get better. Maybe instead of demanding an easy mode for your problems you find a sherpa who helps you get over them.
Games are about entertainment. They're not a career.
They're all skills that you have to develop, and things people do because they like doing them. And if you're not willing to learn to develop those skills, you won't be able to participate.
Zelda games aren't gatekeeping me when I die a lot and they don't give me more health. Portal 2 isn't gatekeeping me when I can't solve the puzzles and they won't give me the answers. Undertale isn't gatekeeping me because I'm bad at bullet hells and they won't slow down time for me. The whole point of the game is to develop a skill and overcome a challenge.
I already named several mechanics Elden Ring gives you to deal with the difficulty, and engaging with them is what the game is about. It can be as easy or as hard as you make it. If you choose not to utilize those options, that's your prerogative.
If you don't like spicy food. Don't buy spicy food. They're not gatekeeping food from you. You have other options.
If you don't want to "git gud". You can use summoned spirits. NPCs, other players. There already is a difficulty slider. It's one you set for yourself.
You always have the option to come back when you're stronger. The boss is not going anywhere.
Spicy food does have a difficulty slider. It’s pretty difficult to find a curry in Australia that’s not so full of cream it’s basically a fruit salad.
And so does Elden Ring. Your inability to find it is not unlike you inability to find a spicy curry.
I found it. It's in Nexusmods instead of in the game.
If you don’t like spicy food. Don’t buy spicy food
I don't know about you, but every spicy restaurant I know has a little "difficulty slider" where you get to ask them not to pour a gallon of ghost pepper into it. It's about making the customer happy.
If you don’t want to “git gud”. You can use summoned spirits. NPCs, other players
Or I can fucking mod the piece of shit and complain about it on forums because it's fucking stupid. But I want BURN Bloodborne because I can't mod it.
There already is a difficulty slider. It’s one you set for yourself.
Yeah. I'm getting really good at archery. Think I'll cut my eye out. Natural difficulty slider
Why is it every time I express a valid criticism about an otherwise story-heavy game with a stupid difficulty-related gimmic the cringe-posse comes out and tries to convince me the game is perfect and no human being would find my opinion valid. Like seriously what I tell my little nieces and nephews, if you don't have anything nice to say, move along.
In other news, I DO respect the Viva La Dirt League reference.
You have so many options to make it easier.
You can summon spirit ashes. You can level your character to become stronger. You can summon NPCs and player for boss fights.
I don't like those options. So I don't do that. I make it harder on myself, by forgoing those options, I want the challenge of doing it alone.
But if YOU want to make it easier, and slide the difficulty down. And summon ashes or npcs or other players, You can do that. You have that option.
You bought a game that you knew would be full of "difficult" bosses, from a company that has never had an official "difficulty slider" on any of their games in this genre. And now you sit and complain about there not being an official "difficulty slider".
Do you also go to a vegan restaurant and complain they're not inclusive because you can't order meat?
You have so many options to make it easier.
Like the third-party Easy Mode mod.
You bought a game that you knew would be full of “difficult” bosses
I bought a game that I knew had a working Easy Mode mod. I would not have bought it if it hadn't. Because the designers are assholes, but assholes who can write a decent story.
And now you sit and complain about there not being an official “difficulty slider”.
Yes, I do. And you sit and complain about another human being having an opinion despite the fact you could just NOT complain about other human beings having an opinion. Funny how people "sit and" do things.
Do you also go to a vegan restaurant and complain they’re not inclusive because you can’t order meat?
No, but that's not an apple-to-apple comparison, making that a False Analogy fallacy. For two reasons. First, whether I agree with it or not, veganism is an ethical position and they're refusing to serve any meat on the menu because they think it's morally wrong to. Do you think Fromsoft thinks they're "going to hell" if they put in a difficulty slider? Second, vegan restaurants are ABOUT veganism. There's no reason to choose to eat at a vegan restaurant unless you or someone in your party is looking to have a meal without meat in it for some reason. There's plenty of reasons to play Fromsoft games but at lower difficulty. Most people don't like Bloodborne or Elden Ring "because it's difficult/unforgiving". They like it because of the story. Anyone who would opt out of playing those games because someone else could play them on easier has serious issues.
It is a great apple to apple comparison. What you did was walk in, get upset that the vegan restaurant only served vegan food. So you came back with your own home-cooked meal to sit down and eat.
The reason you don't like it is because it highlights just how ridiculous you are in your complaint.
They made a piece of art. You chose to buy it knowing what it was. Git gud
It is a great apple to apple comparison.
This is the "nuh uh" answer. You never quantified anything. it's sorta a "fuck you, I know you showed my argument was a fallacy, but I'm better than you so I'm doubling down". I spend too much time in places where that shit gets laughed at. I'm going back to those places. Enjoy your shit game.
They made a piece of art. You chose to buy it knowing what it was. Git gud
No. I chose to buy Bloodborne because people convinced me that wasn't the case. Git blocked.
You really are something else. I strongly disagree that you showed my argument was faulty.
They made a piece of art. You chose to buy it knowing what it was. Git gud
No. I chose to buy Bloodborne because people convinced me that wasn’t the case. Git blocked.
We both know the conversation is about Elden Ring and not Bloodborne. But I suppose you have nothing better to respond with.
they're gatekeeping the game story and experience, and ability to finish experiencing the game, from people who might be disabled or simply bad at games.
by making the game more accessible they would allow more people to enjoy the whole game
it's a pretty standard example of gatekeeping
If someone writes a complicated work of fiction, is it gate keeping to not also include an explainer in simple prose?
Someone might but Finnigan's wake and be completely baffled by it. Is that an accessibility problem? Is the author in the wrong?
Why or why not?
Note this is distinct from publishing it in braille or audiobook format
The difficulty is the experience, home slice. People need to accept that some things just aren't for them.
Why does anyone NEED to be excluded? Many games have demonstrated that accessibility options allow more people to play the game the way they want.
This is something we can start to expect from AAA games.
Do you need others to fail the game, or to belittle them for turning down the difficulty, so that you can feel good about yourself?
Why does anyone NEED to play a videogame? There are plenty of other games out there tailor made for every skill level and abilities.
You're consistently glossing over the point about accessibility. Why shouldn't high budget games make it easier for people with disabilities to play them?
Because accessibility is not feasible in every case without completely changing the game.
Fucking g*mers
Oh lawd he used the g slur.
But the game that the other half is enjoying is the difficulty and the reward of experiencing the story street overcoming said difficulty
Yes and so accessibility options that allow the player to customize the experience are what is being suggested.
If the game were made trivially easy then it would be alienating the people you describe.
Player choice is how games are made more accessible.
Except they're not. You can summon other players to your world to help you at every step of the way.
Except some people have disabilities that prevent them from enjoying difficulty in a game. Some people just want the ambiance and story. Some people have reflexes that are not as sharp as they used to be. They should be able to also enjoy this art form as much as others
Eh I'm sorry but I still don't buy it. Making it a game about ambiance and story makes it a different game, doesn't it? Every game has a target audience right? Why does it seem like it's just games like this that get this sort of outrage thrown at it? FPS games have a similar level of entry yet no one is out there demanding they make Counter Strike less twitchy.
Making it a game about ambiance and story makes it a different game, doesn’t it?
Not really. The experience with the Easy Mode mod in place is pretty much the same. I saw more "You Died" screens on easymode than the typical player sees on regular mode. The only difference is that I didn't waste my money on Elden Ring by having to give up less than 10% into the game like I did on Bloodborne after 50 hours or so.
Some of us, especially older gamers, just don't have the reflexes for that type of game. Unfortunately for us, Fromsoft writes GREAT stories and Let'sPlays are still kinda boring.
Some of us, especially older gamers, just don't have the reflexes for that type of game.
I hear what you're saying, but to be fair, younger players don't start out with those reflexes either. It's probably harder for older players, but I'm not convinced it's that much more of a challenge that it's not worth trying. Maybe it's my lack of perspective talking, but I'm willing to bet that if older folks can learn to play a guitar or code, they could learn to play Elden Ring given the same amount of practice and motivation.
It took me over 6 hours total just to learn to parry, and even then I'd say my success rate is still only like 60% at best. I learned to do it for 1 specific DLC boss, and that was after 200 hours in the base game without using once, so I had to completely abandon my muscle memory. But man, the one run I managed to pull off where I hit just enough parries to make it out alive by the skin of my teeth, it was beautiful. I recorded it, and watching it back is like watching a dance. (Like a dancer with two left feet, but still, lol)
Unfortunately for us, Fromsoft writes GREAT stories and Let'sPlays are still kinda boring.
I don't normally watch lets plays anymore either, but this one really hooked me. Gray and Lark both have a lot of charisma and bounce off of each other really well since they're childhood friends. The stories they tell are entertaining enough that, for the first time ever, I decided to watch a livestream (instead of the edited version I linked).
Vaati Vidya also has a lot of good videos if you just want the raw lore.
I hear what you’re saying, but to be fair, younger players don’t start out with those reflexes either. It’s probably harder for older players, but I’m not convinced it’s that much more of a challenge that it’s not worth trying
It's not about the reflexes, though. It's that they have opted to take actions that make the game unenjoyable for a significant number of gamers despite it having no positive benefit for ANY gamer.
And much of my Letsplay complaints weren't about Elden Ring. I mod that. I don't have the tools to mod Bloodborne, a game I otherwise would like more than Elden Ring because of its storyline.
they have opted to take actions that make the game unenjoyable for a significant number of gamers despite it having no positive benefit for ANY gamer
Like what
I don't have the tools to mod Bloodborne
Miyazaki himself said he wants a PC port but Sony won't do it. We're definitely on the same page there, and so is the CEO of From Software.
Counter strike is a multiplayer game, I'm talking about solo game (and even mp games can have difficulty accessibility options, like Tekken 8 does). About your target audience thing, I'd love to play dark souls and elden ring for the exploration, awesome music and ambiance but the difficulty and slow paced gameplay always put me off. Or to take the other example of Celeste, some people play it because of the difficulty and fun platforming, but I played it for the story and music and I loved it. Giving accessibility options will help people enjoy their game how they want with close to 0 additional development time cost.
I should say that I appreciate the candid discussion, nice to have a civilized chat on the internet. Also - in the end it wouldn't really bother me if Fromsoft did implement a simple difficulty slider. I think it'd be a bit more difficult than you are assuming however since it is also a multiplayer game. I guess they could limit the difficulty options to offline players only.
But as a very long time fan, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that they have actually gone a long way to addressing the difficulty complaints of their games. ER is their most accessible game and there are a lot of in-game opportunities to customize the amount of difficulty one faces. I could go on and on about it but I'll leave it at that for now.
I believe a difficulty slider in a game specifically Elden Ring would destroy the game design. Biggest example is my own experience after walking out the starting area seeing and having that horse fella as the first thing I saw and tried to kill for longer than I would like to admit (before going to Google) if there was just a slider to slide down so I could kill that guy I would have never learned how to play the game and explore and kill bosses to level up. Not saying sliders don't work in ANY game but I just think it would ruin the experience of elden ring.
I mean you could just not use the difficulty slider. I've never turned down the difficulty in any game even if I could have, but I don't begrudge people that do if they're struggling.
Oh yeah I 100% agree with you! I always try to make sure to point out all the other options available to people if they're frustrated with difficulty. I think people don't understand that a lot of the 'options' in Fromsoft games are not in menus - they're baked into the gameplay itself with in-world/lore reasons for doing them. Like how co-op uses a sign instead of a multiplayer interface 'room' like most other games.
It is the best thing about Fromsoft games IMO, that everything is a vessel to help tell the story and create more immersion, and a difficulty slider is game-y and creates less immersion (as well as what you said - would ruin the opportunities the difficulty affords in directing pleayers).
All that being said, if they added a slider that would only affect others, the only way it affects me is that I'd be bummed that they didn't get the great experience that I love about the game. I mean the other person mentioned Celeste which I also really enjoyed and I wasn't even aware that it had difficulty sliders. So that's how much they'd affect my enjoyment of the game.
I think it’d be a bit more difficult than you are assuming however since it is also a multiplayer game. I guess they could limit the difficulty options to offline players only.
For online play, you can just match people who are using the same difficulty, and perhaps disable PVP entirely for Easy difficulty. For everything but PVP, it's not that big a deal. Seamless Co-Op Mod works with the Easy Mode mod. If modders can make a coherent experience, I'm sure From could. If they wanted to. Which they don't.
I think ER had a great difficulty design since you could go to other areas to overlevel. But I haven't played it or the DLC so I can't really give a specific opinion on the implementation in fromsoft games, I just think that general anti-accessibility statement like the original quote are uninformed and ableist opinions. And you're welcome for the discussion!
Yeah I see where you're coming from. I know as a creator it's really hard to strike a balance between achieving an artistic vision and separating their pride in that from real accessibiliy concerns.
And like I said in my other comment, I cherish the way Fromsoft uses difficulty to direct players and tell stories and I hesitate to want to do anything to water that down. Too many games take the route of making that game for everyone and Fromsoft games are for me that gaming oasis I can escape to.
They can, it's just not in the form of 1 button.
It's an RPG, if you want the game to be easier then level up your character to have adequate HP/defense/attack power. Not enough? Upgrade your weapons/shield. Still not enough? You can summon two whole extra players to do all the work for you.
Still not enough? There's mods.
Being bad at games isn't a disability.
Say that to the person that has lost an arm and is playing with a special controller
Difficulty is not the same as accessibility.
Remapping the inputs so they can be done with one hand is not the same as "you get twice as much health and mana".
There are plenty of videos showing people beating the game using one hand with disability controllers as well as entirely with voice controls or controllers that were specifically designed to be as stupid as possible (like bananas).
But it involves much higher commitment than a regular run
grow a new one
"To defeat Godrick the Grafted, one must become Godrick the Grafted."
Blocked
I feel like the main difference is that Elden Rings difficulty is innately linked to its game design. A similar game in a largely different genre is Underrail which is basically designed with CRPG fans who want to be kicked in the dick... repeatedly. Seriously Underrails combat is weirdly complex and frankly speaking even on easier difficulties is still a bitch.
I get that accessibility is a factor and all but theres only so much one can do thatll help without compromising the game design. I think the current situation is for the best, folks can mod the game to make it easier but there shouldnt be any official fuckery.
Also go play Underrail if you like Isometric CRPGs it hurts so good.
You mean like summoning NPCs and other players to your world to help you defeat the boss?
No one is gatekeeping anything just because you don't agree with the art the artist has created.
It has difficulty options. They're just not in a menu. If you want to play on hard mode, use fist weapons and never summon. If you want easy mode, be a mage carrying a great shield and summon every fight.
Those are not difficulty settings and you know it. This argument is so fucking shit.
Of course they are. They literally allow you to ignore all of the most difficult game mechanics. With a great shield you literally never need to time dodges. As a mage, you can easily do ranged damage, so you don't need to time your attacks or worry about positioning. Using a summon means the boss doesn't even attack you half the time, and some of them are so powerful that they can beat many bosses on their own.
It's actually a far better difficulty system than the standard "the game mechanics are the same, but enemies do less damage and have less health" system that most games use.
Thank you. People just ignore that difficulty settings literally means they can still have it fucking difficult as they want, or more so. Gamers are fucking ridiculous, I swear. Try to advocate for accessibility and they act like you're talking about murdering their mother.
