The gender wars continue 🥹
The gender wars continue 🥹
This is not my personal opinion, I know Gen Z men who voted for Harris. But the voter demographics really speak for themselves, and maybe now people will look at the radicalization of young men as a serious (but solvable) issue.
You're viewing a single thread.
There is a lot to be said here. I'll use my own experience as an example.
I'm a millennial male who had a terrible time as a young adult through my mid 30s. I grew up in a fairly religious/conservative area of the US, and I didn't have the ability to even start questioning that before my college years because literally everyone I knew was either a vocal supporter of or tacitly accepted that cultural status quo. Mental health issues were either not discussed or not recognized in any serious fashion. It wasn't until my late 20s that I finally understood that I had severe depression and anxiety and sought help, despite suffering from it since my early teenage years.
Socially, I never felt like I was cool enough or good enough. I didn't understand women, and the endless series of rejections and confusing encounters only served to erode my low self confidence further. I had no idea what a healthy relationship looked like because my parents were just going through the motions at that point, and the relationships I saw in TV shows and movies were incredibly shallow. The few people I considered friends did not support me in any positive way. I eventually kicked them to the curb, preferring solitude to being the butt of their jokes.
I was a prime target for recruitment for the alt-right: depressed, alone, disaffected, and ready to lash out. The only thing that kept me from going in that direction was a keen sense that the rhetoric was bullshit and its leaders only cared to take advantage of the rank-and-file to accumulate money and power. Many people I knew were not so perceptive and became victims of that movement.
My only saving grace was that I had a decent job with healthcare benefits, which allowed me to get the therapy I needed to overcome these challenges. Again, most people I knew did not have such resources. Nearly a decade later, I am now a family man with a wife and child. I am far happier than I have been at any other point in my life. Despite that, there is still plenty I don't understand. I don't have a good grasp of what positive masculinity looks like. I cannot point to anyone who has served as a good, male role-model in my life. I still don't have any close male friends with whom I can share my feelings and challenges.
However, I do understand how easily young men can be swayed to far-right crusades. Social media warped my view of reality, and it's far worse now than it was 10-15 years ago. Moreover, there is no alternative to far-right echo chambers for young men to commiserate and get help. Those spaces simply do not exist on the left. If you dare to complain or vent, you will immediately be told your problems don't matter and called a misogynist. I can readily call multiple conversations I had with liberals and feminists who rejected my problems, even being told that I was "living life on easy mode" because I was a man.
For all the women who are reading this, I get it. As a man, I don't have to worry about the government meddling in my bodily autonomy. For the most part, I don't have to worry about walking alone at night or being accosted or raped. I don't have to worry about being taking seriously at my job or being passed over for promotions because of my gender. However, none of that negates the challenges that young men are facing. Their gender does not save them from broken homes, abuse, mental health issues, a bad job market, degrading standards of living, student debt, double-standards, confusing and contradictory narratives surrounding dating and relationships, etc. Yes, privileged men with no right to complain do exist, but they are an extreme minority. The vast majority of young men are in a bad place, and the only people reaching out to help have ulterior motives. If you want things to change, try having some empathy. Maybe you will get empathy for your problems in return.
This. Men are more often victims of violent crime, homelessness, mental illness, suicides, do worse in school, incarceration, die in wars, work dangerous jobs. Classic male institutions, structures, and spaces don’t exist anymore like they used to.
Add to that that men showing emotions is still seen as weakness.
These issues aren’t addressed or even mentioned.
Men are more often victims of violent crime, homelessness, mental illness, suicides, do worse in school, incarceration, die in wars, work dangerous jobs.
The victims of other men. That's the joke of it all. And the folks screaming loudest about being victimized are inevitably the ones quickest and most eager to take their own pound of flesh at the first opportunity.
Add to that that men showing emotions is still seen as weakness.
Primarily among other men. This isn't a gendered issue nearly so much as it is a socio-economic hierarchy. The "excess males" problem is what's driving the violence, the poverty, and the declining health. Young men are pressed into the social hierarchy by their elders, often from an extremely young age, through physical, emotional, and sexual violence. They climb the social ladder by proving their tolerance for abuse by those above, while exhibiting a sufficient capacity for sadism on those below. Anyone who cannot endure the abuse and find their own cohort to abuse in turn becomes the social excrement that the system exudes.
This is literally "The Patriarchy" that feminists rant about and seek to abolish. But efforts to abolish the system invoke its most violent tendencies. The result is a youth population that is selected for the most sniveling and cruel to lead it into the next generation.
This entire comment is exactly the kind of lack of empathy that the gentleman was talking about.
Primarily among other men.
The worst I ever got for showing emotions in front of other men was being called sensitive. Women on the other hand dismissed me with fury, insulting my manhood and even hitting me.
They climb the social ladder by proving their tolerance for abuse by those above, while exhibiting a sufficient capacity for sadism on those below.
Where did you learn this fucking nonsense, gender studies?
The Patriarchy
Interesting name for it given how many men will tell you it is women upholding men's gender roles. Men are still expected to pay for dates, to be able to support families, to have a home and a car before they're even worth attempting to date...
When Terry Crews came out about his sexual assault. So many men publicly derided him. I felt so bad for Terry.
For the record, fifty cent, Vlad from VladTV, DL Hughley were those that made fun of Terry and some even insinuated he was possibly gay.
And if Feminists could differentiate between a homeless man down on his luck and a bigoted billionaire asshole, "The Patriarchy" would actually get fought, but they both have dicks and are therefore identical.
primarily among other men
Tell that to my ex lol
The patriarchy sucks for most men, that aren’t on the top. Their grievances are still legitimate and either ignored or belittled.
The men at the top maintain their position by deflecting the consequences of their exploitative policies onto the lower rungs of the ladder.
I agree that much of the problem is men on men and this patriarchy - men who do not want to uphold patriarchal values can often be ostracized and demonized by those who do - but I believe OP was specifically noting that then those men who get abused and ostracized cannot speak out of seek help because many people will simply snap back at them saying that they are part of the problem and resources need to be given elsewhere. They cannot endure the abuse, and their own cohort becomes abusive, and the only way to avoid the abuse from all sides (in their view) becomes joining the "social excrement" they wanted to escape in the first place.
Angry screams tend to mask sad and lonely tears. Hatred does not end hatred; hatred ends through non-hate alone. Non-hate is not inaction, though. If we do not look at them, and ourself, with empathy and kindness and understanding and patience, they will continue living in a world devoid of and therefore ignorant to empathy and kindness and understanding and patience.
those men who get abused and ostracized cannot speak out of seek help because many people will simply snap back at them
The people they're surrounded with who will snap back are the folks higher up the chain. Parents and older siblings, bosses and sports coaches, bullies at school, etc. The people you see "snap back" on Redpill discords are TikTok influencers none of these men knew existed a day ago.
the only way to avoid the abuse from all sides (in their view) becomes joining the “social excrement” they wanted to escape in the first place.
From the inside, you're told everyone on the outside is out to get you. Anyone who is nice must be a predator. Anyone who is apathetic must be a bigot. Meanwhile, the people on the inside are your friends. They only want to make you stronger and tougher. The hazing, the abuse, and the exploitation are for your own benefit.
Only be leaving the insulated Redpilled world do you realize most people simply aren't invested in the cultish behavior and bullshit ideology.
Oh absolutely, I'm pretty sure I'm on the same page with this. I only pose that to someone who believes they've found people who respect them, and particularly those who have felt for a long time that their voice didn't matter, it is counterproductive to approach them and their group with outward hostility.
Telling them the people who took them in and listened to them are vile, abusive, disgusting people and are exactly the problem they say everyone says you are, is just reinforcing of their views.
Consider the comment originally replied to; paraphrase because mobile is hard, "those loudest about being victimized are the most eager to take their pound of flesh". This can easily sound like:
- (Man) I've been victimized and nobody lets me voice this except for this gang/cult/militia. Cult says they should be allowed to "get support" and they know the way (it's bad).
- (Outsider) Claiming to be a victim usually means you are a terrible person.
- (Man) So according to outsiders, if I seek help, I'm a bad person. According to my (cult etc) if I tell them, they will offer a form of support. I can stay with these people and get something of support, or I can leave them, be ostracized, and any attempts to voice my feelings will lead me to being labeled someone eager to take a pound of flesh.
They need to be shown that those on the outside understand them and are better people than those who took them in. They are with people whose form of empathy and respect is so distorted and toxic, but it's the only model of that experience they know.
Your comment, upon my read, felt like anyone in that position would feel justified in their gang telling them that everyone on the outside is out to get them. If they already think everyone else is a predator, what is attacking their friends, their family, and their opinions, going to do?
They will only leave when they know they will arrive somewhere with the respect they craved without those toxic feelings they repressed during their time with a hateful group.
So I guess it's less about the content of the comment, more of the way it represented the ideas, the timing, and the perceived intention.
Telling them the people who took them in and listened to them are vile, abusive, disgusting people
This isn't a matter of telling anyone, this is a matter of people in abusive systems realizing it on their own. You can pop over to the ex-Mormon or ex-Scientology communities and find these folks in droves. Its not random anons asserting the corrupt nature of these relationships but the folks who escaped them.
“those loudest about being victimized are the most eager to take their pound of flesh”
The loudest folks are the social media influencers. You'll regularly hear your Tim Pools and your Jordan Petersons, your James Dobsons and your Elon Musks, rant about how men are victimized by femininity, while profiting off the insecure and insulated men who have been roped into their carny acts.
They need to be shown that those on the outside understand them and are better people
The folks that profit off the patriarchy are the least willing (or, even, able) to convey an outsider understanding. They only persist by rehashing age old tropes of toxic masculinity.
They will only leave when they know they will arrive somewhere with the respect
They can only find respect when they leave. If they're trapped in a bubble of delusion, they're just going to get a shadow-play of Woke Liberal Virgins being mean-spirited losers and Based Trad Chads being triumphant paragons of virtue.
Primarily among other men
Studies show that the first person to start judging emotions in man are their mothers while they are kids, and fathers have little todo with that stigma
Don't be shy. Drop that link. Curious to see your source.
Why is this downvoted, but not the comments its responding to; wtf? But yeah, you could not be more right on the patriarchy bit. All the things being cited here are things actual feminists have known for a century. What men need, beyond positive role models, is a rebranded classical feminism. The reason you cant just call it feminism is kinda the problem. The term has been associated with misandrists, who feminist advocates tolerate way more they tactically should. Because us vs them narratives are very appealing
Feminist in general is the wrong word because it inherently sounds like placing women first, rather than treating men and women equally
I would also say that everyone regardless of gender is treated pretty shittily at the moment
I'm using the term because it...is the word for that philosophy. I'm not exactly campaigning here
You are right about that though. Men and women both get shitty treatments, the funny thing is they're almost polar opposite experiences and both manage to suck monkey farts
Feminism often tolerates hate speech against men (cut their dicks off) and espouse female supremacy (if women were in power there would be no war).
As a Gen Z man who statistically should have fallen down the incel and alt-right pipeline but didn't, this echos exactly what I see in my generation. We don't have positive examples of Masculinity, and the left just yells at us that we're trash, when we struggle with things and most don't have many (or any) good friends to lean on. So of course they go to the alt right.
and the left just yells at us that we’re trash
I'm a millenial and I never got this. There must be a split somewhere when people fell into different echo chambers or algorhythms. Like 7 years go I used to frequent reddit subs like MGTOW and pussypassdenied, looking for something to connect to because of clinical single-ness. These were the only spaces I would find comments like that. On my other, left wing, socialist Internet spaces this wasn't present. That is why those pro-men/anti-women subs never connected to me. The work on yourself, improve yourself and keep reading was great, but the insane amount of hatred and religion pushing was crazy.
Yet it feels like men in my situation these days don't have alternatives. It's sad when Andrew Tate is considered masculine. Terry Crews or Keanu Reeves are much better. Sure they're not podcasters, but they give off a much better vibe.
It's a shame that the space these men find themselves is pushing against freedom of expression for others.
I think it depends on a lot of real-life interactions, too. I had coaches and teachers and older work colleagues (including in heavily male dominated workforces, like the military) who were strong masculine role models. So when it came to media consumption I tended to gravitate towards celebrities or famous characters who already fit the worldview.
Nick Offerman played a libertarian Ron Swanson on TV, but in that fictional work the core cultural markers of manhood were explicitly presented as non-political, and seem largely shared with the left-leaning actor himself.
Terry Crews is similar, as you've pointed out. On Brooklyn 99 his character was presented as a loving father of young girls, who was in connection with his feelings, but also loved working out and sports and, you know, was a cop with a gun. In real life, in interviews, he seemed very much in tune with healthy masculinity and his place in the world.
Steve Kerr and Greg Popovich give off positive male leader vibes and often speak up about political and cultural issues, while largely being protective and supportive of the younger men who essentially work for them.
George Clooney is funny because he came off as a bit of a womanizer for years, but dove right into his long term relationship with a woman whose own career would arguably overshadow his. He is unabashedly and vocally a supporter of Democrats and other causes associated with the left in the United States.
Nobody is perfect, or deserves to be put on a pedestal. But there are little nuggets of positive examples all around us, including traditionally masculine men who support ideals that are more culturally and politically associated with the cultural left.
George Clooney is funny because he came off as a bit of a womanizer for years, but dove right into his long term relationship with a woman whose own career would arguably overshadow his.
George C- oh, you mean Amal Clooney's husband. He's some sort of actor, right? Anyway, Amal Clooney is awesome and a hero.
I mean, I get the joke but this whole thread is actually about not dismissing men's problems and acknowledging some positive male role models, just feels a little in bad taste. Yes amal Clooney is amazing, but read the damn room. That's part of the problem, even after this whole discussion, you still come away with the same conclusions - let's not bother celebrating the white male because he doesn't "deserve" it as much as (in this case) his wife
There is only really Noel Deyzel from social media as a positive role model
Thanks for relating all that - lots of information but worth the read. You largely summed up my own early existence in the first few paragraphs. My therapy came in the form of getting involved in theatre, which exposed me to all kinds of people and ideas, revamped my attitudes and saved me from embracing radical ideas that are more or less based on rejecting a society that rejects you. I think that same cynicism is common in people from many different backgrounds, who share the same alienation for all kinds of reasons.
I'll even add one - throughout my software career doing contract jobs, finding a new gig always took me 2-3 weeks and was very routine. When I turned 50 the 2-3 weeks abruptly and permanently became 2-3 months, and took a lot more effort. Apparently in that community I was suddenly too old. Only one recruiter let slip that age was the reason a potential client rejected me, but the sudden difference at 50 was stark. So I don't know what you do for a living but you might be facing that yourself when it's your time.
Anyway I totally agree about empathy. I don't know what it is but people seem to be constantly on guard nowadays. Their go-to assumption is to look for evil and refuse to accept simple mistakes. That and permanently crucifying anybody who does anything morally unacceptable, or ever did in their past. If somebody Likes the wrong tweet it's unforgivable and irredeemable. I don't recall another time when so many people were so militant about this attitude. Forgiveness used to mean compassion, now it means you're complicit, enabling, a shill, "just as bad," etc. I think we need to think of the glass houses analogy and stop pretending to be morally impeccable.
there is no alternative to far-right echo chambers for young men to commiserate and get help
I feel like there's an adjacent issue where any space like that without a clear political lean quickly gets pushed rightwards by shitters
ugh I remember my last straw on Facebook was my high school alumni group becoming a shit-storm of sea-lioning and a couple folks blocking people and also spamming nostalgia-posts to drown out and push down more serious discussion. A high school famous for it’s science-focus but alas, the older (but not much older) folks were openly commenting about that black-people-crime-percentage “statistic” and gay people.
That was a very thoughtfully written response. I can relate to a lot of your story and agree with your conclusions. There needs to be more outlets for men as an alternative to right wing communities. I hope you meet more liberals and feminists that are open-minded to men's hardships. I have to believe there are more reasonable people out there on the left than not.
I have to believe there are more reasonable people out there on the left than not
There are, but online is where the psychopathic man haters feel free to let their colors fly. At union conventions and community meets, I only ever hear tame comments from the very obvious radfems.
half joke first. nobody's trying to meddle in our bodily autonomy, yet.
edit: i havent looked too close at it but the mensliberation space on lemmy.ca may interest you? cancermancer down bellow has a rec for r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates that looks to have another good perspective in the topic. so im sticking it right here with the other.
I'll try to approach the topic from my perspective as well. my gender has never really be part of my internal view of myself. but it is an inescapable part of how other people will see me, and the rules are always whatever the other person wants. so maybe not the poster child for speaking on masculinity. i'm literally the default charater generator in every videogame, but it's just a hallucinating meat suit.
talking about gender concepts and social roles was a norm growing up because i did that growing up in the weird outside groups the christian kids chased. any reference to maculinity was done at me as an attack, even when i was doing it according to the rules. i agree, there are few places for young men to explore their way out of those strict views. especially in the early years. i've often seen them jump straight into spaces meant to be safe for people who've had not great experiances with the topic, especially women. and press other people to do all the work, explain things to them and navigate their often* harsh language. and i get it. when you've only ever been allowed to express 3 levels of the same emotion, it's gonna be rough sorting that out.
it's going to be on people who have worked their way through that mind set to make those places for kids to start the process. most importantly, people who share their experiance and perspective. yes folls like me can and really need to come in there and talk openly. but my own experiance is never going to line up in a way that will connect with those kids. even when i look exactly like our experiance should line up.
...if theres more spelling mistakes then there are more spelling mistakes. fuck it thats too much text for a phone
Bodily autonomy? What's this scar on my cock again?
fair point. sounds like theres a need for a space to have these conversations. with people effected by the topic and moded by people on the otherside of the joirney, who could have empathy in the difficult moments. anyone know of a space? i'll try engaging where i can.
Have also heard people talking about giving men vasectomies at 16 (people who don't understand they can't actually be undone)
FWIW I've only seen that used to illustrate how ridiculous it is that we find it essentially normal to have laws controlling what women can do with their reproductive systems but not men. I've not seen a single credible example of someone seriously suggesting this.
I've known a person who took that seriously and thought it was a good idea
I mean, yes, I'm sure there are people who do. There are people who think the earth is flat. They don't influence policy though.
Edit - my point is, no one is coming for your testes, and knowing someone who thinks it's a good idea is no better an example here than it would be for me to say I'm worried a flat earther is going to influence space exploration policy.
Fair point
mensliberation space on lemmy.ca
I appreciate your otherwise quality comment but I have to say that I don't intend to use a space that only views men's issues through a feminist lens.
On Reddit, LeftWingMaleAdvocates is a solid lefty men's space.
i spent all of a minute poking around. not a topic i deep dive in really. more hoping to pose the question of "hey do we maybe have a space like this?". someplace where people having a shared perspective would have the patience for eachothers early questions they once had.
i'm not on reddit but a few minutes poking around there it doesn't look crazypants. so i'll add it to my comment too.
No that's fair, I don't want you to feel like I'm saying you're acting in bad faith because I absolutely do not believe that.
nah i get it, i assumed good faith on your part as well. i skimmed through some threads in that sub and all i wanted to do was start jumping saying "guys just pause a second so we can talk about some of this language". but thats absolutely not the place for me to do that.
it would be as productive as the guys who'd go into r/twoxchromosomes posting "explain like i'm 5 why my wife left over not doing the dishes enough". assumimg good faith, i get he's thinking "ok this is where other women who have done this talk, i'll ask them". there wasnt anyplace else to send the dude, so a few people would try responding. but it always devolved into language policing, because not doing so in that space would forfit the sub to the people it was designed to be safe from. i never commented in that space specifically because it was their sub and i was just there to understand perspectives. i was a guest in their home.
people need to be able to use the only words they know with the meaning they understand them to have. before they can do any self reflection or understand why it becomes important to adjust our language for eachother sometimes.
I have to imagine if the democrats had not largely ignored these problems they would've won by a landslide
If you want things to change, try having some empathy. Maybe you will get empathy for your problems in return.
Funny a man has said this twice this week. Women have higher EQ than men in general - how do you think they developed this?
Extending empathy to men is not what helps men feel empathy, though. That’s not how empathy is developed. If it was, movie actors and kings etc who have empathy extended to them constantly, would be the most empathetic people on the planet. Yet they are the least empathetic.
The thing that gets men to feel empathy, is the man feeling empathy. It’s like a mental weight - you have to choose to lift it. I can’t make you do that by rolemodeling. You have to actually take time and do the work. Actually sit down and think and perspective take without projecting or objectifying. Just radical acceptance. You have to do that work. Your comment asking women to once again bear your emotional burden of empathy is silly. We can't. It's a skill you gotta develop. And the sooner you do it instead of thinking it's women's work (which is why you just asked us women to be empathetic - our assumed role), the sooner the world is less shit.
And only then can you be truly caring, empathetic, or a feminist - by examining your own actions as a man. It’s great to allow men to have a sense of community outside of toxic masculinity, but this isn’t how men develop empathy or Feminism and that’s weird to phrase it like that,as if it’s valid for men to punish women by removing rights, voting for Trump, removing empathy, and not being prosocial. In fact, that’s quite controlling and abusive.
I once saw a gif on Reddit of a little girl being forcibly kissed by a little boy (both about 6), and she shoved him off and he looked sad. The entire thousands of comments focused on the little boy's first rejection. No one even noticed it was the little girl’s first sexual assault. She even wiped the kiss off, reminiscent of victims cleaning themselves after assaults.
When I pointed this out, people were angry. How dare I suggest that little boy is a monster. But I wasn’t. I was entirely focused on the little girl’s experience and I wasn’t advocating for anything relating to the boy. In fact, I think an appropriate “punishment” would be to explain to him to not touch people without asking etc. And that’s it. I just wanted to see her experience and make sure she was okay. Her situation is more important and critical in this moment than the little boy's. But these men heard 'sexual assault,' and instead of empathizing with the victim, they empathized with the assaulter, so much so they started defending him from a nonexistent attack. Do you not see the clear problem here? Do you see the issue?
But men were so unable to extend empathy to a girl, to a woman, that they literally couldn’t absorb this information or perspective take as her. It was impossible for them to imagine what she felt like. This was like 3 years ago. It was astonishing. No, men do NOT empathize with women. Men empathize with themselves as an idealized version of who they would be as a woman - that’s projection by definition and is entirely how they feel entitled to control women and objectify them.
Theredpill is banned on reddit but they leave redpillwomen online. Weird reddit...
So much fucking this