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Little bit of advice from Poland. I’ve seen this kind of mindset before.
When liberals tell you losing will mean the end of democracy they exaggerate a lot. People grow tired of fighting with such high stakes so in the long run you just wear them out. Sure, if Trump wins things will suck definitely but it’s not the end of the world. Ultimately biggest political parties serve various oligarchs so once Dems are inevitably back some years from now you’ll notice not much is changing for you personally.
People grow tired of fighting with such high stakes so in the long run you just wear them out
This is true.
Sure, if Trump wins things will suck definitely but it’s not the end of the world. Ultimately biggest political parties serve various oligarchs so once Dems are inevitably back some years from now you’ll notice not much is changing for you personally.
This is where I vehemently disagree. Just because you're not going to be one of the first ones they target doesn't mean it's no big deal. They're talking about using our local police to round millions of people up and put them in camps, and you're going to sit there and tell me it's not the end of the world? Get the fuck out of here.
It's okay to be tired. Fight anyway. That is what is required to maintain Democracy. Giving in to authoritarianism because it's easier is a bitch move.
I'm genuinely curious, who is getting rounded up? And who's going to let that happen?
He's talking about deporting millions of illegal immigrants, which will probably require putting them in a camp at least temporarily.
So the "camps" side of things definitely feels gross, but he's "threatening" to enforce the law, that's not wrong. Now if he's weaponizing the system to deport his opposition or otherwise law abiding citizens, that's a problem.
He has promised to deport pro-palestine protesters.
Most of whom are born Americans.
You’re not paying attention. The camps are for far more than just the undocumented.
Okay, but legally he can't do that. No matter how much he wants to. And once again, orders are as only good as the people who are tasked with carrying them out.
It's worth noting here that the President, as per the supreme Court, is immune from all prosecution if his actions result from the scope of his duties. It would be trivial for Trump to argue that deporting everybody he doesn't like is within the scope of his duties, whether it's lawful or not. That's the unique danger we face right now: a combination of a strong man and a uniquely deferential SCOTUS. It's never happened in American history.
He’s a literal criminal who has filled the courts with his minons and the police love him.
Who’s going to stop him? Seriously who?
His term this time is going to be worse than last time because he and the republican party have removed all the ways we have to stop him from doing whatever the fuck he wants.
Official acts are completely legal now. He can order protesters executed and the supreme court already said that’s fine.
This is why the second amendment exists.
Sigh people who think a piece of paper with ink scribbles will protect them.... 😮💨
Presidents issue orders against the law all the time and they're carried out. The damage is done before the issue even hits a court room and then you assume that the judge is willing to risk their life to protect your rights? 😂
A lot of the people he wants to deport are people claiming asylum because the country they come from is too dangerous to be in. Letting those people stay here while they plead their case is one of our lawful treaty obligations. Rounding them up and summarily deporting them is not enforcing the law it's abrogating the law.
The president has supreme authority over the executive branch, which includes the military. Trump has explicitly said that he would implement mass deportations, and has called democrats "the enemy within" while in the same breath saying that the national guard could be used to put them in prison.
As for who's going to let it happen, that would be all of the Trump sychophants that he will be appointing. He learned last time that appointing republicans isn't enough to let him get away with his batshit crazy ideas, they have to be cult loyalists as well.
I don't think he should be in charge of anything, but even if he were I can't imagine there are enough people willing to follow those orders to actually carry them out.
This is where I vehemently disagree. Just because you're not going to be one of the first ones they target doesn't mean it's no big deal. They're talking about using our local police to round millions of people up and put them in camps, and you're going to sit there and tell me it's not the end of the world? Get the fuck out of here.
Your mistake is believing any politician, Trump included. He says crazy stuff to win votes, not to actually implement it. This is true of libs in general as well.
You haven't been paying attention. Trump tried to implement this stuff last time and was stopped by people loyal to the Constitution. ALL of those people are gone. He is surrounded by people who WILL carry out his orders. Trump rarely learns, but he has absolutely learned a lesson when it comes to staffing.
This is true of libs in general as well
This is a ridiculous attempt to both sides. Give us an example. What compares to "we're going to detain and deport millions of people"?
I’m not interested in political theatre, I judge based on outcomes because it’s impossible to know intent.
In Poland libs were very up their arms about human rights abuse against migrants on the Belarusian border. Just months after they got back into power they formally suspended ability to request asylum (mandated by Geneva convention and EU basic rights charter). Similar stuff in France as well.
Trump is litterally the one telling people that. "Im going to be dictator for a day". "Vote for me and you'll never have to vote again". "We need to use the miltary to rid of the radicals".
If you're truely polish, you should be well aware of what a man that says these things can do.
Do you believe everything Trump says? Is he somehow that one politician that’s going to keep his promises no matter how hard they are to implement? Do you believe everything Harris says?
I’m Polish so I have a good estimate of how this is going to go. Trump is copying Orban / Kaczyński. Dems are copying Tusk who is seen as one to stop illiberal democracy in EU.
If Dems lose they will say every single thing Trump does is an attack on democracy, even if there are rare instances of a broken clock is right twice a day. Ultimately this will erode trust in politics and public institutions even more. Then once Dems are back at the wheel they will want to remain in power so some of the bad things Trump did but people found okay will suddenly be okay. Been there, done that.
When someone walks up to you with a gun pointed at your head threatening to end your life. Do you ignore them and carry on as if nothing is happening?
Doesnt matter if they have no intention of causing harm, the threat needs to be treated as it were real because it absolutely can be real.
Nobody is pointing a gun at your head, you’re using an unnecessary and unproductive hyperbole. This kind of escalation is what’s going to erode remaining usefulness of political debate.
I really hate to be the bearer of bad news. I don’t want any of this to happen. I hope others will learn from our mistakes.
The same ccouldve been said for 1933 Germany. There were plenty of people then saying "he doesn't really mean it. He's just trying to rile up the masses for votes". 6 years later they were rolling tanks through your country.
Dont ever be compilict to someone making threats.
Or, maybe, it’s a bit of an overreaction and you don’t live in the ascent of new Nazi Germany but because you’re so hysterical now nobody is going to treat you seriously when actual bad things happen. Also been there, done that. I’m saying this with your best interest in mind because we already made those mistakes.
Unfortunately US might be fucked due to two party system but the actual solution to your troubles is honest debate. Try to listen to what Trump voters are afraid of. Some of their concerns are probably valid but they have been misled by shrewd politicians. They won’t regain trust by treating them like children. Or nazis.
You cant debate with bigots.
Not every Trump voter is a bigot, I’m certain of that. People have different problems in their life and have to be pragmatic in how they use their voting power. Some have different priorities, some have been misled. What you’re doing is only polarising society and because nobody wants to be wrong it only leads to entrenching in positions which those people might not have held before.
No. Every single trump voter is a bigot. Even if they are the type that votes purely becsuse of the R beside his name. They are compilict.
Trump is extremely vocal about his bigotry and if that doesnt convince you he's not a good leader, then you are in fact a bigot.
"I'm going to shoot you in the face" - Man who can't stop lying if their life depended on it.
"I don't believe you" - Last words of person shot in face.
shocked pikachu face
Maybe lets not risk it.Yeah, I was shot by Trump to death twice yesterday. Try to get down go actual issues rather than whatever it is that you’re doing.
It absolutely will be the end of the world for the women who die when an abortion could have saved them, for the immigrants dumped back into their war torn countries, and for the trans people that are forcibly detransitioned who then kill themselves because of the horror.
Spoken like a true cis white male.
Look, if people vote for Trump then maybe they want it that way or don’t care? Is this really the most important thing when people die due to fucking horrid state of US healthcare in general?
I was a head mod of primary polish subreddit and had to resign due to my hard stance of treating calls to criminalise abortion as hate speech. Please don’t question my good intentions, you don’t know me.
Trump has also tried to cut medicare several times, while Harris wants to put a cap on out-of-pocket prescription prices and actually improve things instead of blaming everything on immigrants.
I don't appreciate your whataboutism. You're arguing like it's one or the other, bodily autonomy or better healthcare. The goal should be both. They're not conflicting issues.
I understand what you feel, I was there too accusing others of „symmetrism”. You don’t want to see critique of your side or pointing out that others might not be entirely wrong because you feel like everything you do contributes in some small way to which side will win. But this only leads to dishonesty and overt hyperboles. You’ll be frustrated, anxious and sad when you lose so don’t do that to yourself.
Maybe people voting for Trump don’t care about public healthcare because they don’t trust doctors in general. Maybe they feel that the entire healthcare industry is there to scam them and putting public money would be a waste. They’re probably wrong but you need to consider what led people to vote for someone that promises to dismantle the whole system. Maybe the root cause is something different and that’s what needs addressing first?
Remember folks Hitler failed to burn it down the first time
Will US under Trump be more or less of a Nazi state than, for example, under Nixon?
More obv. My post was a warning that a 2nd term would not be good.
You should probably learn how to hedge your bets. What if harris doesn't win? Would it be better or worse if we had more dems in congress for a trump pres?
Isn't it better if people who wouldnt show up for harris still show up to vote dems down ballot? Maybe stop attacking them over Harris and invite them to vote down ballot for dems by supporting their cause. Unless, you know, you're pro genocide then you can fuck right off.
Stop making harris support your identity makes you look like an asshole.
In what ways will it be worse / more Nazi than under Nixon? Healthcare? Infrastructure? Minority rights? Black rights? Waging wars and supporting genocide in some third world country? Sorry to break it to you but US was always a borderline fascist state and that includes Democrats.
Lol exactly what you think you'll accomplish this line of reasoning? That you'll convince people harris is the best option for their vote? You wont.
That entire list is better dealt at congressional and local levels of the ballot, and is entirely unrelated to the presidential ticket. Stop wasting your breath on a failed argument. Also are you sure you're responding to the correct person? Im well aware America has/is borderline fascist.
I’m trying to explain to Dem voters that their moral high ground and calling everyone a Nazi will lead Republican voters to entrench in views pushed by far right even if they didn’t hold them before. Dem voters are supposed to be the smart ones so they should understand that, right?
So you're arguing with a leftist to convince liberals that they're assholes? 😵💫. I mean I already knew this, but okay. Not particularly interested in discussing the million ways trump is horrible.
Im more interested in making sure harris campaign is as rough and hard as possible because her positions are absolutely atrocious and we as voters need to leverage the conditions of our local voting environments effectively by voting strategically against her without risking trump.
Yeah, that’s what I’m warning you about. This approach has been tried. Whatever happens, it was already decided because you’re not going to course correct at eleventh hour and root cause of general discontent is much deeper than you want to admit.
If you lose you’ll go into democratic resistance, fight every single thing Trump does. By second or third year regular people notice that not much is changing in their lives and then you lose all of your steam. When actual bad stuff happens nobody cares.
Then in a couple of terms people will get tired of the right, vote for the libs and then you realise that those Dems have adopted lots of stuff Republicans did because that was the only way to get back into power. And that it was always about power. I’ll be there to say „told you so”.
Of course its been tried. There isnt a problem with it. Its Harris' problem to deal with. I assure you the states people should do this in are not going trump no matter what those of us in those states do. (Think cali,ny level 25+ dem leans)
I dont particularly care if dems adopt right wing stuff, i dont really want to vote for them either. In the meantime ill continue trying to build in my state.
None of the right wing things she's adopted worry me. I don't mind border policies if they're done humanely, and im generally pro gun.
Bigger problem is lack of labor reforms. Shrug but neither party adopts those minus in primaries and those are more congressional issues than a presidential platform
This is not up to Harris or politicians to fix, they are not capable of getting people out of this. They will just let you down in new and innovative ways. You talk about the changes they are doing now but I was talking the changes that they’ll need to get reelected in the future - it will be grim and similar to what’s happening all over Europe. Centrist liberal parties are becoming indistinguishable from parties they lost power to (Labour in UK, Renaissance in France, Civic Platform in Poland). It will discourage even more people from participating in politics.
People need to get out in front before it happens to minimise the damage. This means more respect towards people we don’t agree with and that unfortunately includes less poo slinging at bigots. This also means less involvement in treating symptoms because it depletes our capacity for change („orphan-crushing machine”).
Pretty sure they had similar things to say about Bush-Cheney 2004, but now look. The Harris campaign enthusiastically accepted Cheney's endorsement. I think they all need to go in the contraption, but liberals have no credibility.
Jeeze what happened in 2008 again? I can't remember...
Sir, that is far too much logic for this crowd.
This (like Reddit) is an echo chamber.
It’s not a Reddit thing, it’s happening everywhere in the US media sphere aligned with Dems. I have a horrible deja vu to how our local equivalent political party and media did exact same things and lost badly and couldn’t get back into power for nearly 10 years. Not that I’m a big fan of them either but if we had two party system I’d begrudgingly vote for those guys so I can sympathise somewhat. I’m trying to convince at least some people that this is not the way to go.