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Dude, this has been a traditional way for parents to embarrass their adult children in front of their partner for decades. My wife has seen my naked baby pictures without my parents even showing them to her. And I've seen hers. What's the big deal? It's not like either of us found them sexy.
Chopping part of your child's dick off has also been traditional for decades, that's a very poor justification for that behaviour.
I agree
Are you really comparing showing your child's long-term partner their naked baby pictures with circumcision?
My point is "we've always done it like that" isn't really a justification.
They are challenging the logic, is this really a confusing idea to you?
They are challenging the logic, is this really a confusing idea to you?
it's still weird (source, i have parents), at least ask your daughter for consent first.
I'd consider it to be a breach of my privacy otherwise.
They're baby pictures. We're not talking about something erotic here. Naked babies are not some sort of scandalous thing. In most cultures, they're normal.
i didn't take them and i didn't consent to them existing either. Neither did i consent to them being shown to anybody.
Naked humans are also normal, yet we still wear clothes. babies included, weirdly enough.
At what point does "naked baby photos" turn to "naked children photos" is my question.
how about this. You can have your naked baby photos, you just also have to be in the photo and naked as well.
i didn’t take them and i didn’t consent to them existing either. Neither did i consent to them being shown to anybody.
Based on that reasoning, I should not show anyone any photo of my child until they were old enough to consent to them being taken.
You can have your naked baby photos, you just also have to be in the photo and naked as well.
I'm not embarrassed by my body and if that's what her partner really wants to see, I don't care.
Based on that reasoning, I should not show anyone any photo of my child until they were old enough to consent to them being taken.
This is actually solid advice, especially as far as social media is concerned.
We're not talking about social media, we're talking about the significant other of my child. Or even relatives. I didn't get my daughter's permission to take her photo when she was a baby, so I shouldn't have sent a photo to my father on the other side of the country based on this reasoning.
You're (wisely) backpeddling now but you said:
used to torture children in front of their serious romantic partners brought home for the first time.
Things were different when we were kids. It's a fucked up thing to psychologically abuse your (presumably) teenage kids like that and objectively people know that. (Your daughters) consent in the subject is the only thing that matters. The only reason anyone is giving you a pass is because you're FlyingSquid, but maybe leave those pictures in the closet until closer to the wedding.
Oh please. It's not psychological abuse. It's "torture" the same way telling the story about the time they told a lady in the checkout line, "I came out of my mommy's bagina!" when they were three to an adult child's partner is torture.
You show me an example of anyone suffering PTSD because their parents showed their partner baby pictures.
You show me an example of anyone suffering PTSD because their parents showed their partner baby pictures.
Ah yes, because everything is ethical as long as the other party doesn't develop a mental illness because of it
Yeah saving it for their long term partners (if you have to) is probably a better idea than showing them during the first meeting.
And please don't dismiss other peoples trauma because you didn't experience it personally, childhood trauma takes many different forms, some we're only just becoming aware of.
I didn't dismiss anyone's trauma, I'm asking if that has ever resulted in anyone's trauma, a parent showing their adult child's partner a picture of them naked as a baby.
I mean if nothing else, not as a "torture," showing the partner the first couple of pictures of the kid as a baby should be acceptable to people just as a "this is what they looked like when it all began" and they don't come out with clothes on. They also are unable to understand the concept of consent, let alone give it.
I would also suggest that if that did cause someone trauma, it would be because the parent was aware this sort of thing would upset their child to that level and did it anyway. I think most parents wouldn't actually show the pictures if they knew it would cause the child real psychological pain, because that isn't the point in doing it. It's usually a form of good-natured ribbing, not malicious.
You show me an example of anyone suffering PTSD because their parents showed their partner baby pictures.
i literally provided myself as an example in this, i quite literally said that i would consider it a violation of privacy, and no that's not PTSD, but PTSD is the extreme end of things here. We aren't just talking about PTSD.
Based on that reasoning, I should not show anyone any photo of my child until they were old enough to consent to them being taken.
based on that reasoning i shouldnt expose my child to the visual perception of other people who exist outside in the chance that one of them non consensually perceives my child.
You wouldn't expose your child naked in public, why would you expose them naked on picture?
I’m not embarrassed by my body and if that’s what her partner really wants to see, I don’t care.
that's great, the implication there is that you're still showing it to other people, and if we're talking family and friends, i don't know many people that would want that.
You wouldn’t expose your child naked in public,
How exactly do you think someone changes a diaper at a park?
i mean, most people use bathrooms. Considering that human waste is literally a biohazard, i feel like doing anything else would be quite rude at best, and arguably a crime at worst.
So you acknowledge that I would, in fact, expose my child naked in public. And with good reason. And everyone could see her genitalia when I did.
Edit: Oh, sorry, misread. You think you can always make it to a bathroom? You have never had a baby.
I might note here as a Finn that this prudishness concerning the naked human body seems very American.
You're not allowed to go to a public sauna in your swimming wear here. And if you're a dad and have a small daughter, you're obviously going to have her in the men's changing room. And when I was a kid, I was in the women's changing room with my mom.
Even at parties it's not uncommon to have a mixed-gender sauna where everyone is naked. I'd say most commonly it's women wearing a towel and men wearing nothing, or if it's in a sauna near a beach/lake then people will have their swimwear on most times.
Still, just being naked isn't considered sexual in any way. You can even see the non-sexual nature for about 50% of the people who are naked. (Vis-a-vis their lack of visible arousal.)
hence why i said rude at best, because yknow, human fecal matter has never been known to cause disease and sickness in other humans. Let alone what kind of sanitary problems that would cause in most places.
Im sure people carry kit with them, but shit happens (literally) and i would certainly want to be in a bathroom rather than not be in one, because that way it's atleast contextually contained and expected. Also do you not have a car? That would certainly explain some of this.
Taking photos of naked children isn't, and shouldn't, be normal in any culture I'm familiar with, and you definitely shouldn't be showing them to anyone.
Well you should get familiar with Finnish culture and then start berating the Finnish guy who chimed in and said it was totally normal.
You know what an immoral, shithole country Finland is though.
The Finns regularly take naked photos of their children? Sure buddy.
It's not my fault that you reply to all of my comments and don't bother reading other people's. It's right there for you to read.
When are you going to contact lemmy.world admin to have me reported to the authorities for child abuse and the possession of child pornography?
DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT CONSENT IS
YOU LEARN IT AT SCHOOL, ITS VERY IMPORTANT
you really need to chill out
Tbf child marriage is also traditional, Muhammed had a 9yo bride (it's "ok," he didn't have sex with her until she was 11.)
Defending things based solely on tradition can get pretty weird sometimes.
That's a tradition that ended a long time ago. I'm talking about traditions that are ongoing. Also traditions that, despite someone else's claim, probably don't cause any psychological harm, at least most of the time.
I think you may be surprised and hopefully disturbed by this UNICEF article.
Despite a steady decline in this harmful practice over the past decade, child marriage remains widespread, with approximately one in five girls married in childhood across the globe. Today, multiple crises – including conflict, climate shocks and the ongoing fallout from COVID-19 – are threatening to reverse progress towards eliminating this human rights violation. The United Nations Sustainable Development Goals call for global action to end child marriage by 2030.
So no, it was not "a long time ago." It's "hopefully by 2030."
Also traditions that, despite someone else's claim, probably don't cause any psychological harm, at least most of the time.
Oh, so as long as you don't believe the person and can therefore invalidate their feelings without guilt, and it only psychologically hurts "some" people who you I suppose arbitrarily believe over the ones you don't, it's fine?
Not sure I can agree with you on this one.
Believe what person? Hurts some people?
I have asked for evidence that it hurts anyone and have not received it.
Also traditions that, despite someone else's claim, probably don't cause any psychological harm, at least most of the time.
Actually you asked for nothing, you made a whole lot of assumptions instead. And
evidence that it hurts anyone
Here again you invalidate the feelings of those telling you with their own words that they don't like it. The evidence they don't like it is them telling you they don't like it, you don't need a scientific paper to corroborate that some people find it objectionable, you just dismiss them because you want to partake in the behavior they find objectionable.
I absolutely asked for evidence. I just didn't ask you for evidence. Weird that you apparently read through my comments and didn't see that.
And not one person has told me that they were personally hurt by this happening to them. They have just said that it is wrong.
You show me the person in this thread who said it caused them pain. I can't invalidate feelings that people don't have. Someone not liking something has nothing to do with whether or not that thing causes trauma or any sort of psychological damage to anyone unless it caused them that damage.
And now I am asking you for evidence. Please quote the person that was hurt by their parents doing this.
Ok, I was personally hurt by it happening to me. Now what's your excuse?
I do not believe that any more than I believe you are any sort of expert in psychology or understand what is legal or not legal to have on a phone.
Oh ok so only if I have a peer reviewed case, not if it actually affected me, how'd I know that'd be your lame excuse.
I hope you show a kid those pics and they ask for copies for later, then it'll get weird for ya.
Yes, if you can't provide evidence for something I have no reason to believe you. I'm not sure how that's a lame excuse. It's why I'm an atheist as well. But you do you.
I'm not sure why you think I would talk about me showing a child my daughter's baby photos since we were talking about me showing them to my adult child's partner. Do you think my daughter will be a pedophile when she's an adult and that I would support her in that or something?
You do understand that to cultures where this isnt the norm, it sounds ridiculous to show naked pictures of your child when they were an infant to, well anyone?
It being a tradition has no bearing on it being awful or not. Circumcision is a tradition.
I'm sure you can find a more modern way to embarrass your child without resorting to CP?
Which cultures? And why do they get to decide what is right and what is wrong?
Also, naked photos of children are not child porn. Do you think they come out of the womb with clothes on?
I had to clean shit out of my daughter's vagina regularly when I changed her diapers. Was that, similarly, sexual assault?
I personally have no use for pictures of baby genitals, but you really do huh? It even makes you upset we want to take away your baby genital pictures huh?
Is this some perverse form of individualism?
Edit: if you took a picture of you cleaning your daughters vagina out, and showed someone, yes that would be child porn and child abuse.
Again- they don't come out of the womb with clothes on. Are parents not supposed to take a picture of their newly-born child or should they put a fig leaf on them?
I've asked several times- if this is child pornography, find me an example of someone getting in legal trouble for having a naked photo of their own baby on their phone. One person.
Were you even in the room with your newborns? Both of mine were moved to a table, cleaned up, and swaddled. I would have had to literally interrupt them to take a genital picture of them.
But I guess where you live, they pause first and ask if you want a full naked body shot? Cool tradition, I know you love those.
I'm sure noone has been in trouble for ONLY having their naked child's pictures on their phone, but I'm sure those pictures have ended up in CP collections. I'm sure you have perfect opsec though so its fine.
Legality as side, since its not the law preventing me from abusing children anyways, I'm arguing that its morally wrong. Plenty of immoral actions are legal from my perspective.
Why does your perspective need baby genitals to be featured again?
No one paused anything. My wife gave my mother-in-law a camera and she took a picture because my wife asked her to. Then we sent that picture to my father and my mother who was on a layover in an airport.
I assume no one masturbated to it.
And who is featuring them? Certainly not me. Have I shown them to you? No. And i wouldn't.
And you can say, for certain, that noone has ever seen that photo without your permission? I guess you might have me here if its a physical photo locked in a safe somewhere.
Edit: although these had to printed at a business, where anyone working could have copied them
I thought you said it was my child porn collection. Make up your mind. Also, are you going to contact lemmy.world admin?
I think you've lost track of your replies.
Nope, I'm replying to you in both threads, but you claimed I have a child porn collection, so I am waiting for you to do something about it.
Today I learned flying squid is okay with this kind of thing and that's fucked up
It's a violation of privacy & consent
How do you get a baby's consent exactly?
You can't, that's why you don't take photos of them naked.
My goodness are you obsessed with things I said hours or days ago.