Help with coffee cultural confusion
Help with coffee cultural confusion
Hi all! Happy to find this community!
Just wondering if some might be willing to help with some confusion I've had.
I was talking to someone here (Masto actually) about the best forms of coffee, and espresso hadn't been mentioned. So I said, how about just espresso ... clearly the best form of coffee.
They responded with "I don't like dark roasts". And I said it sounds like you just haven't had good espresso and that you don't need to have use dark roasts with espresso, as it can be quite light, floral and fruity. They didn't seem to like what I said and didn't respond.
This person comes from Canada, and I come from Melbourne Aus. From what I know, we have different coffee culture from Canada, or at least used compared to the US. For instance, I'd never really seen espresso be tightly bound with the "dark roasts".
Naturally, being a snob, my impression was that this person and their coffee culture don't know what good espresso can be, but I truly don't know what's going on over there.
Any insights?!
EDIT: This conversation was much more polite than this ... I was just trying to summarise it and the feeling I had that they didn't quite appreciate that I thought there was more to explore in espresso than what they knew.
Otherwise ... thanks to those who answered and more or less confirmed my suspicion that some think espresso must be made from dark-roasts but it's not true and one's understanding is probably due to what they've been exposed to.
From my understanding espresso beans do tend to be roasted darker to help increase extraction. I know that at least for my manual espresso press I need to use a significantly different recipe to get a nice shot out of light roasted beans.
Broadly though, I do think the cultural idea of espresso is that it's a small, super intense cup of coffee which in turn implies it being very bitter as that's the main coffee flavor people can imagine being intensified. Especially when you consider that a lot of people's idea of espresso likely comes from pod machines which, in my experience, tend to make very bitter shots.
I was genuinely shocked the first time I had a shot of a espresso from an actual coffee shop and the predominant flavor was sour not bitter.
So, yeah, I do think it's very common for people to associate espresso with dark and bitter coffee.> I said it sounds like you just haven’t had good espresso
Edit: FWIW, if you're looking to actually talk to someone about all this, lines like, "I said it sounds like you just haven’t had good espresso," is not a great way to engender a good conversation.
To be fair to myself, I think I was much more polite than that. I was just trying to get the idea across that I was challenging their idea that espresso=dark-roast and that there seemed to be no where for the conversation to go as neither of us knew where the other was coming from. I've never had coffee in Canada nor encountered the espresso=dark-roast idea and the seem to have never had lightly roased or light tasting espresso.
Thanks for the response!
Yea, my local bean supplies often provide lightly roasted beans and often need an adjustment (I'm using a Flair BTW for manual espresso), but can be really lovely!
I get the sense it's a bit of a trend in my area at the moment to go for fruity, light-roast, even "natural" beans (dried or roasted with the fruit still on the bean). So much so that my partner doesn't like it as much as I so it's just reserved for me.
It's interesting how so many others associate the bitterness with espresso. I imagine that's how they've always had it.
I have a few close friends who drink espresso regularly, and they struggle to enjoy any hint of sourness in their cups.
(Testing multiple images)
A few considerations: the bean type, the roast type, and the creation of the final drink.
Personally, I wouldn't have said that it sounds like they haven't had good espresso. I've had similar conversations (in person), and I used phrases similar to "yeah, I don't really like dark roast, either, and eapressos pulled with dark roasts tend to be too bitter for my taste. However, I've pulled some amazing shots from medium and light roasted coffees, with floral and fruity flavor notes that had me question everything I've ever thought I knew about espresso." Then, during one such conversations, I pulled him a shot using some store-brand medium-light I had on hand then. He didn't like it, but admitted that it tastes very different than he expected, which challenged his preconceived beliefs about espresso. So, I didn't convert him to an espresso drinker (he was a tea drinker), but that wasn't really my goal, and he did open his mind to the challenge of the 'espresso is dark roast' mindset. I'd call it a win.
To be fair, I did have past conversations where I used the phrasing you did, and they didn't go well, so I tried something else with next conversations.
I recommend not entering the conversation with the intention of converting their beliefs, but, instead, with the goal of simply broadening their understanding of the subject.
From what Ive experienced, Canada is has a dark-roast culture. I'm from Canada and I never really went out for coffee (just made standard drip coffee with cheap pre-ground) so I remember my first exposure to espresso drinks. I worked shipping/receiving in a small, high-end retail store that had an espresso machine in the back. One of the ladies there used to own a coffee shop and would make me lattes occasionally. One day I was tasked with buying more beans and was specifically told dark roast. The brand they prefered had a medium-roast on a really good sale so I called them up to present the option. I was very sternly told no and when I returned to the store had the idea of a non-dark roast shot down by a couple more employees. It seemed everyone there, ex-coffee shop owner included, were all under the idea espresso was dark roast only. Medium and light roasts were too weak for espresso. Since this was my pre-snob days I just assumed they were right. We also have a very popular roaster in town that has close to a dozen dark and very dark roasts, one medium-dark, one medium, and no light roast. From my conversations with people in my pre-snob days I'd say 100% of people I'd brought it up with only purchased dark roast for at home. At one point I switched to medium-roast in a French press and whenever I had guests I was told the coffee was too weak.
Tldr; from my experience non-snob Canadians see a strong tasting dark roast as "proper" coffee. I feel like a lot of people think they're getting more caffeine from it.
Thank you!! This makes sense!
I don't know when it happened, but where I'm from, light-roasts for espresso definitely became a normal thing at some point. Just yesterday I was in a nearby cafe checking out the beans they sell and there were plenty of "natural" and "light-roast" beans. Though that place really do like their fruity espresso. Generally though, we've developed, even amongst "non-snobs" (unless we're all snobs) an idea of coffee as not needing to be dark etc. I'd never thought about it before, but I'd say we've developed an almost dessert like taste for coffee?
Thanks again for the reply ... just what I was hoping for!
Do you have any insight on where the culture comes from?
I know in the case of where I come from (Melb, Australia) that the common understanding is that the majority of our Italian migrants came after WWII, not before, and so we imported a coffee and espresso culture quite different from other Anglo-phonic countries that was also allowed a blank canvass to shape our coffee culture.
If this were an am I the asshole post I’d say you sound like the asshole. You can talk about things you like without dunking/flexing on others. Clearly not the best form of coffee enthusiasm.
Anyway most regular people, in general, who make espresso, are not using light roasts for it. Of course you can make espresso with any coffee, but light roast espresso also won’t necessarily appeal to everyone who likes a pour over. Just chill.
I mean, maybe I was the asshole. Maybe we were comfortable enough with each other to use language that when taken out of context sounds bad but was just banter in the moment? Some people are rather happy talking to each other the way I outlined the conversation!
Reality is that I was just trying to summarise the conversation and how it hit a dead end once I talked about how espresso doesn't need to use a dark-roast and maybe it's just not a thing they've tried or that's done where they are. The language wasn't the point and it was much more polite than my "mock" of the conversation.
I was just looking for any insights on coffee that I might not have and on variations in coffee culture and lingo around the world.
And while I appreciate feedback on the language, in general, I have to say going around and dunking on people's language in conversations without context and without being open to the possibility that you don't really know what happened and why, is kind of an asshole move in itself. It's not hard to just say "Hmmm ... maybe they didn't like your language or attitude? On the coffee side though ... "