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I'm just gonna keep hammering this in for a while. 81 million Democrats voted in 2020, but only 71 million this year. Trump won by 3.5 million. But hey, at least all you righteous little angels aren't "complicit in genocide", right? Think about that while you polish your halos. YOU did this.
The Dems could have forced a ceasefire. The Muslim contingent warned them months ago and polling very clear showed that a ceasefire would have likely changed the result in several critical swing states.
Oh bullshit. The only way to get a ceasefire is for the Israeli people to force out Netanyahu. Nothing short of that or invading would make a difference.
eh. kinda missing the point. they didn't even try and the polling was clear-- this policy would lose the Dems the election.
Also, South African dock workers have managed to organize and block the transfer of Israeli military goods through their ports. You telling me that South African port workers are more capable of following international law than the Us government? well, fuck it, how do I vote for them then?
Israel has its own weapons industry. Not that it matters. The Palestinians are defenseless. They could use machetes and nothing would stop them except what I already pointed out.
Yes, but they don't have their own satellite constellation or nanometer chip forges and many of of their fancy weapons systems would be rendered useless by an Alibaba gps jammer.
Granted, this wouldn't do a whole lot for the IMU guided systems, but the US has literally been shooting down missiles in transit for a year when they fly towards Israel. you telling me that shit only works in one direction?
Right. Team America: world police rite?
Get a good grip, child.
"Why are we responsible for the bombs we keep sending to Israel?"
They can't bomb Gaza without american bombs or defend Tell Aviv without American GPS or or or or.
You said:
The Dems could have forced a ceasefire.
I disagree, you are not world police.
Now you say:
They can't bomb Gaza without american bombs
To which I say: yes, but those two things are not the same, and your understanding of both geopolitics and Israel's current armament is not as definitive as your confidence in their inability to commit atrocities without anyone's assistance.
Don't be so reductive. The US is very important in the "mass slaughter" math here, no one's trying to out-kill you, you can relax, but you're not the whole picture.
No. I'm saying the US had the technological capability to stop missiles from flying at all, the financial power to make life difficult for the Bibi regime, the political power to back the ICJ, and is in no way compelled to reprint IDF propaganda to sway the American electorate towards their pro-settler policies, but they failed on all counts. The US made Iranian nuclear refineries shake themselves apart, but US tech companies now build AI tools to aid the IDF in their campaign of total destruction.
Maybe the ceasefire wouldn't have been total, but the polls clearly showed that the lack of effort would (and did) cost them the election.
But hey, at least all you righteous little angels aren’t “complicit in genocide”, right? Think about that while you polish your halos. YOU did this.
How are you sure that all the missing votes are caused by Pro-Palestinian purity non-voters?
It hurts too much for them to consider they’re responsible. It’s too close to self awareness.
Nowhere near all of them have to be. Trump only won by 3.5 million. It's very difficult to believe that anywhere near a majority of the 10 million Dems who decided not to show up would have voted for him.
They aren't. But if one of them is, then that one person helped caused this. If ten thousand of them are, then those ten thousand people helped cause this.
This is not about finding the one person or group who bears sole responsibility and pointing the finger at them to excuse everyone else. This is about what each person has within their control, and whether they did the right thing.
So instead of blaming Pro-Palestinian people, why aren't they looking into why voter turnout is so low?
Because we already know. Voter turnout is low because Americans don't mind having a fascist dictator. Some of them just didn't care, and some of them thought becoming the Fourth Reich and blowing up Palestine was a decent way to teach Kamala a lesson.
Some of them just didn’t care, and some of them thought becoming the Fourth Reich and blowing up Palestine was a decent way to teach Kamala a lesson
Again, you are focusing on Pro-Palestinians for some reason when you don't know their impact.
No. Drag didn't mention anyone who was pro-palestine at all in drag's comment. If you're pro-palestine and you felt targeted when drag blamed the election on people who want to blow up Palestine to teach Kamala a lesson, it might be time for some introspection.
Drag didn’t mention anyone who was pro-palestine at all in drag’s comment
some of them thought becoming the Fourth Reich and blowing up Palestine was a decent way to teach Kamala a lessonlmao @ "might be time for some introspection," I don't need advice regarding introspection from someone with a gimmick, I voted Kamala btw
If you voted for Kamala, why are you personally offended when drag criticses the non-voters? This isn't about you, so your defensiveness isn't needed. You can join drag in criticising the people who chose not to choose. They don't need you defending them.
why are you personally offended
This is your problem, you're making dumb assumptions because you're stupid. Dumb assumptions like "Pro-Palestinian purity non-voters cost us the election."
Voter turnout wasn't low.
and whether they did the right thing.
So the Democrats were doing the right thing by continuing to unapologetically support a fascist foreign leader in his continued Genocide?
Regardless of who anyone voted for, they voted to support a genocide, and it's 100% on the Democrats to even put people in that position to begin with. "You can't vote Trump, he's a fascist! He'll support a genocide!"
Voters: Like... You are?
Dems: ...well that's different!!!
This is not about finding the one person or group who bears sole responsibility and pointing the finger at them to excuse everyone else. This is about what each person has within their control, and whether they did the right thing.
There is no "right" thing because every single person will define it differently. To me, the right thing is supporting the working class and not supporting a fascist genocide. To you, "right" is "stop fascism, no matter what." To another commenter, "right" might be choosing to abstain from voting because none of the candidates represent the direction or policies you feel are most important.
To Republicans, the "right" thing is to establish a christofascist autocracy. Or it's to stop the dirty Dems. Or it's to stop abortion.
So "right" is irrelevant, the "right" thing to do was for the Democrats to actually listen to the American people and the policies that are popular to them, and then rally that energy into a larger voter turnout. That was the only right thing to do, especially when a loss will result in fascism.
You don't get to lecture the voters about not understanding the "right" thing to do when the leaders of the political party that's supposed to be the last bastion against fascism honestly seemed to phone the whole fucking thing in. And this stems from the entitlement that I've been ranting about the DNC having for years. You aren't entitled to anyone's vote, regardless of "right v wrong" as far as candidates are concerned.
The Dems needed to earn their votes, and they decided a centrist campaign based on the promise that nothing will be substantially different from the last Dem who Americans feel (whether they're right or not is irrelevant) hasn't improved their lives substantially. Americans want change, and the Dems could do nothing during "tHe MoSt ImPoRtAnT eLeCtIoN oF oUr LiFeTiMeS" than promise the American people 4 more years of the status quo.
Dem Leaders: Wow, we had record voter turnout in 2020 running Biden on policies that Bernie had initially run on, progressive policies that seemed popular among the base! So what should our strategy be to stop fascism in 2024?
Dem Consultants: Eh, just rerun the 2016 playbook and send out 30 texts a day begging for money. We only raised over a billion dollars, we don't need to spend that on studies and polls to find out what policies would get us voters, nah. It's Trump, he's a fascist moron that got trounced in 2020, we got this in the bag.
How come it's everyone's responsibility not to vote for genocide, but you're allowed to abstain for genocide as much as you want if you can point the finger at a politician? Like, it's 100% Kamala's fault you let Trump win and you therefore have zero culpability, but the voters who tried to prevent that are personally to blame for Joe Biden's failures.
How come it's everyone's responsibility not to vote for genocide
Because it's genocide... Do you think the victims care if the person sending Netanyahu his bombs has a D or R next to their name?
but you're allowed to abstain for genocide as much as you want if you can point the finger at a politician?
Yeah, that's how the right to vote works. Can you point to the voters who are holding a gun to Biden's head and forcing him to support a fascist leader and his genocide?
Can you point to the voters who held a gun to Kamala's head and forced her to adopt the same policy on Israel that Biden's administration has adhered to? Despite it being incredibly unpopular among his party's voting base?
Like, it's 100% Kamala's fault you let Trump win and you therefore have zero culpability,
I voted for Harris, and my state went to Harris, so no, I did not "let Trump win."
But yeah dude, it's 100% Harris' fault. You don't get to support a genocide and then try to play morally superior to your fascist opponent who supports the same genocide...
And you don't get to complain that it's the voter's fault that they wouldn't support a candidate who wouldn't denounce genocide, or even commit to just not supporting it like the admin she's part of is.
Would y'all be defending the genocide and Harris/Biden's unconditional support of it if it resulted in a draft for Americans, but not necessarily yourself? Or better yet, if you were a Palestinian in Palestine, would you be begging America to vote for Harris because of LGBTQ+ rights, or the economy's soft landing? Or would you be asking them why they won't elect someone who won't support a genocide?
but the voters who tried to prevent that are personally to blame for Joe Biden's failures.
I'm not blaming voters, period. They were given the choice between Diet Fascism or Fascism, and I don't blame anyone for sitting that out. I fully acknowledged that regardless of my choice, I was supporting a genocide, and those lives are now at my feet.
But to act like voters have any fault in this is laughable. The DNC laid down with dogs and were shocked when they got up covered in fleas. They gave Republicans numerous spots to speak at their convention, but none to the Palestinian Democrats that the Uncommitted Movement requested be allowed to speak.
What do you call a table of 10 people sitting down with a Nazi?
11 Nazis.
You should probably write 11 more paragraphs on how everyone who voted against genocide is a nazi, just in case somebody didn't read your first two screenfuls of text
You should probably write 11 more paragraphs on how everyone who voted against genocide is a nazi, just in case somebody didn't read your first two screenfuls of text
So just not going to try to address any of what I had to say with your own thoughts, opinions, or evidence? Just going to snidely make a comment about how I write as if your brevity somehow makes you right?
There's that elitist, liberal entitlement the average American loves to see from the DNC. 👍 Keep winning over voters, drag, you're doing God's work.
I haven't seen you explain to me how supporting Israel's genocide unconditionally doesn't make Harris and Biden fascist, unless I missed it scrolling by my two "screenfuls" of text. 🙄
Harris and Biden are fascist. Your 11 paragraphs are attacking beliefs drag does not hold. Drag did not defend those beliefs, because drag agrees with your criticisms of them. It would be nice if your criticisms lead to a belief in protecting Palestine, but alas. You instead decide to spend all this time attacking Harris voters for not being as sour about their decision as you are. You think they, and you, have something to be guilty for. There is no guilt in choosing the least harm. There is guilt in choosing not to choose. There is guilt in neglecting one's responsibilities in favour of the comfort of inaction.
No, I understand your point, and you're completely missing mine.
You're saying people are obligated to choose diet fascism or fascism, and those who chose are absolved of guilt while those who abstained aren't. I'm saying they're not, and to blame them for anything is ridiculous, the blame is on the Democrats.
And what would their action have sparked even had they voted? The US just walked back their threats regarding further aid to Israel. According to third party organizations like the UN, Israel hasn't improved aid access in Gaza, but the US just announced they'll be sending more weapons to Israel anyway.
So where's the least harm, Netanyahu got what he wanted regardless of the clearly toothless threat (and literal virtue signaling to their base to win votes) from the Democrats? The genocide continues, but you're going to tell yourself your hands are clean because you chose the least harm?
We support a genocide, drag, we have no moral superiority over those who didn't support it. Blame Harris and the Dems, where the blame lies, and be angry you were put in this position to begin with. The Democrats are supposed to be better than this, and have no excuse not to have been. And they lost because of it, hold them accountable, not non-voters who need to be won over, not condescended to and scolded.
You're saying people are obligated to choose diet fascism or fascism, and those who chose are absolved of guilt while those who abstained aren't
Fascism or liberalism, but you've got the spirit. We are thrust into this world with conscience and reason, and thus we are burdened with choice. You cannot crawl back into Eden and pretend you do not know of good and evil. You are imbued innately with choice and freedom, and thus responsibility. There is not an option in which you are not responsible for the consequences of your actions.
Do you understand this much of drag's argument? The assertion that choice is inevitable? Because while your comment started out good, it immediately changed the subject into agreeing with drag about the complacency of the Democrats and the evil of Netanyahu's regime. If you want to agree with drag all day and get nowhere on the issues we actually have reason to discuss, then continue talking about simple material things we both understand.
But if you want to show that you understand the reason drag holds drag's opinions, then comment on the actual substance of our disagreement, the nature of choice. Can we crawl back to Eden and forsake our ability to choose? Are we responsible as passive bystanders?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKBJoj4XyFc
I linked this higher in this thread, but I need everyone to watch Jon Stewart's post-mortem on Harris' campaign. Like y'all are blaming EVERYTHING on pro-Palestinians, while not even acknowledging the republican-lite ads and interviews the Democrats ran coinciding with a bunch of pro-corporate consultants that joined her campaign in September. Or the fact that a segment of the population doesn't like Trump, but is also racist/sexist enough to not want a black woman as president either.
Lemmy thinks they're smarter than the MAGA crowd, but fall for neoliberal corporate sponsored propaganda instead. First it was hispanic men, then it was Gen Z, now it's Palestine supporters. Meanwhile 57% of white people as a demographic voted for Trump, and MSNBC nor Fox News has nothing to say about that.
What is your point though, are you saying Trump and Harris are equivalent?
Of course I'm not. And if you watched Jon Stewart's segment I linked you would understand exactly why "Trump is worse so vote Harris" doesn't work as a gotcha.
And I voted for her, too, before you bring that up as well.
Nailed it on the head.
People want a straw man to light ablaze and blame everything on.
And I voted for her, too, before you bring that up as well.
I'm getting big "do you support hamas???" foaming at the mouth energy from casualpenguin.
I'm asking you to make a point, and filling in the blank with an example which I'm glad was incorrect. So what is your point.
Uhoh, did he not write the required 10,000 word essay explaining how democrats and Republicans aren't exactly the same? Guess that means they don't get to criticize the democrats. Awww geez.
Stop being so defensive and whingy, I'm asking him to make a statement resembling a point so I can engage.
I think people on this site put way too much weight on the importance of Gaza for the american voter.
The Harris campaign made plenty of other unforced errors as well. Campaigning with Liz Cheney was certainly a choice.
I'm waiting for something from Sam Harris that doesn't devolve into a rant your problematic uncle would give. I had to give up at the cut and paste "Muslims are a big problem" part that he's been parroting since 9/11.
The problem is this basically argues the Democratic party cannot have any diversity of opinions lest the entire party suffer. But Republicans can have fringe members who advocate positions almost all Americans find abhorrent and win across the board.
Also, the trans portion reads like a queerphobic mad libs.
Identity politics is over. No one wants it. Latinos and blacks don't even want it, as witnessed by the fact that they moved to Trump in record numbers
He’s sooooo close and yet missed it by a mile. How are our political commentators/class this inept? It’s. The. Economy. Stupid. Identity politics are an issue to those voter blocs - BUT IT IS NOT THE ONLY ISSUE VOTERS CARE ABOUT.
You can’t go up the pyramid towards (identity) actualization without having a firm base - of economic and physical safety. A Latino/black/gay/etc person trying to put food on their family’s table and struggling to make ends meet, is going to view your party as deeply unserious if the only thing you’re offering them is representation and token* allyship. Those things are important, but not the start and end of your platform when reaching out to those voters.
I disagree. I think identity politics is causing a lot of burnout. It might still be relevant but it can't be the single topic for the Dems to rally around. Yes, it's the economy. But to pretend the insane thought policing that occurs on the left isnt exhausting is a failure on our part I believe.
Oh get off your high horse. Voters don't owe the Dems allegiance. The Dems need to win voters. They blew a billion dollars on bullshit instead of representing their electoral constituency. If you want to blame some voters blame those that voted fascist.
They owe their country the duty to get down off their pedestals and show the fuck up.
One man one vote, but it better be for MY TEAM
Are you sure you believe in democracy that you defend with such righteousness?
With such a brilliant electoral strategy, it's a complete mystery how you ended up losing the election.
Hopefully the non-conservative parties here in Canada will learn from your genius strategy and do nothing like it.
I’m just gonna keep hammering this in for a while
..Which only reinforces the story that centrists stand for nothing and cant be trusted to lead a party-- especially a "big tent" coalition.
How does 10 million people not showing up to vote reinforce the story that centrists stand for nothing? I wouldn't call people centrist for not showing up on the excuse of "not being complicit in genocide". I would call them single-issue fools.
This was the second highest turnout in a hundred years. In the seven swing states turnout either met or exceeded 2020. This is not an interesting point.
It was a 12% drop in voting in probably the most crucial election in modern times. Sorry if it's not an interesting enough meme.
It's meaningless in a system that uses an electoral college.
Popular vote isn't meaningless, just distorted. There's a limit to how much you can lose by and still manage to get enough electoral votes.
What's the limit?
Good question. It would be difficult to calculate. I would start by examining electoral districts to find the ones where voters from the popular majority party in a state have been concentrated by gerrymandered so they will heavily win those districts but lose in most others, enabling the minority party to win that state. Then determine how many votes the gerrymandered party would need to overcome this by winning some of those other districts. Then do this for the whole country and add up the total.
What does gerrymandering have to do with winning a state's electoral college delegates outside of Maine and Nebraska? States award all their delegates to the winner of the states popular vote.
Ok then I'm wrong. How would you estimate it?
I wouldn't. Popular vote doesn't have a meaningful role in determining the presidency.
I love how you said "complicit in genocide" unironically.
Really shows low standards have fallen for Democrats.
Denotes sarcasm. Trump et al. Will increase the genocide instead of having a shot at stopping it. They are still complicit in genocide, more so, arguably
Absolutely more so, not voting against Trump was morally reprehensible because of what he will do to Gaza as well as people here
The only thing arguable here is whether or not Democrats still possess any degree of objectivity.
They had hard data that continuing to enthusiastically support and fund genocide would cost them at the polls. Then, approximately ten million people decide not to vote. It's asinine to take the stance that the voters are at fault here. This argument is like punching someone in the face and then blaming the victim for the fact that you injured your hand.
Yes, I too remeber when Kamala said nothing about ceasefires https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/23/politics/gaza-israel-harris-convention-speech/index.html
Or how trump and his friends were all about saving palestine
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905
Yes, certainly blaming the person for bring punched in the face here, uhuh.
If someone is bombing your friends, family, and neighbors... do you care what they say or what they do?
Be reasonable.
You realize she isn't potus and can't stop these things? Be reasonable. Palestine will now be relegated to the history books.
She is an extension of the POTUS and the policies of this admin, and it doesn't matter what she said as long as Biden was sending WMD's to Israel mid-genocide.
You aren't making sense.
I'm not making sense? Lol ok. So she isn't her own person? She can't have her own direction if she became potus? You aren't making sense. By your logic everyone in the US government is complicit, including Rashida.
Democrats had 4 years to pass electoral reform and call in reinforcements to fight the republicans. They could have done away with FPTP voting in the states they controlled but instead sat on their hands. They didn't do everything in their power to stop the Republicans. Democrats can no longer be trusted to go it alone.
"My purity is a precious delicate flower, I'm not going to soil it by voting for Democrats. Palestinians can take comfort in that!"
"Why can't my politicians mesmerize me every day? I don't want no competent government nerds in Washington, I need to be mesmerized every day to muster up the precious energy to go and vote!"
I will never, EVER overestimate or respect the younger generations, who can vote and won't. They have now shown themselves to be as ignorant stupid and heartless and fickle and impatient and lazy as medieval peasants.
They are just as fucked up as their baby boomer parents or grandparents who gave Reagan and his cadre of assholes the keys to the kingdom.
You just can't fathom that this is the Democrats fault, eh? It was their Republican Lite campaign, so it's their fault. Not young people, not Latinos, not muslims. Leftists couldn't say shit about how this wouldn't workall year, because that would only help Trump. Now they're at fault. Maybe you can think about a course change for once instead of blaming anybody but the party elites that are only invested in donor interests.
I will never, EVER overestimate or respect the younger generations, who can vote and won’t.
Did you even notice that Harris lost amongst every single demographic except college educated whites? She got slaughtered amongst the native American vote even more than the youth vote. So how about you be consistent and talk down to the native American voters. Go ahead.
