Andrew Tate is a symptom, not the problem’: why young men are turning against feminism
Andrew Tate is a symptom, not the problem’: why young men are turning against feminism
Teachers describe a deterioration in behaviour and attitudes that has proved to be fertile terrain for misogynistic influencers
Despite the triggering headline, this is a pretty good article that talks about how younger men are falling for this horseshit
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I posted this elsewhere:
This is not a coincidence, this is the result of a long-term, political strategy. Anyone remember GamerGate? There has been an extreme backlash against feminism since the mid-2010s which GamerGate was a part of. (GamerGate in itself was part of a wider strategy that the far-right began to use on 4chan in the late 00s.)
Steve Bannon (then EIC at Breitbart) pushed GamerGate’s anti-feminism into the mainstream right-wing politics because he saw it as an opportunity to recruit young men. Unfortunately he was right and his strategy has paid off, forming an anti-feminist alliance that has become a core belief of right-wing parties all around the world. It has creeped into the mainstream with figures like Andrew Tate who fulfill the role of recruiting young men for even more extreme anti-feminist, far-right content.
This was the background noise that these young men grew up in. Many of the influencers they followed would tell them endlessly how feminism is to be blamed for bad games (during GamerGate) and - in general - how feminism is to be blamed for most ills of modern society. That young men were effed over by capitalism and patriarchy was - of course - deliberately omitted.
I agree with you. But I have another blame to this: the far right is the only political side that works on young men, especially on the romantic side of things.
Feminist is the other group that talks about sexuality and men/women relationships. Their fight is the good one, but they vomited men when it comes to #metoo and the consequences, and sometimes men were even excluded.
The outcome is that when you're a men struggling with women, and this is especially a problem with gamers, long time single men, and young men discovering everything about this kind of things, when you're struggling, feminism is basically abandoning you and sometimes even blaming you.
The only solution you can find about this is from far right with the most toxic and conservative philosophy there is. But it is the only one you can find, as a man, to try to get better about this. Or at least it was.
Those men were politicaly abandoned. And even here on lemmy you can easily read about people arguing that if a man can't find a woman, it's because he is a shitty person and not respectful of women.
So indeed on the one hand the far right led a political fight for this result. But on the other hand no one else was fighting on this ground. The left need to stand up and fight this fight too, rather than to send people seeking help to the far right.
I mostly agree with you, but not with this...
feminism is basically abandoning you and sometimes even blaming you.
Yes, that's because feminism is a movement for the emancipation of women. Why should a group that is fighting for its own emancipation waste its limited resources for another group that is not fighting on their own? For better or worse, there is no political or ideological group out there which isn't prioritizing the interests of its own members first and foremost. So why should feminism be any different? Why should women have to do the work for the men who - for whatever reason - aren't acting in their own interests?
Yes, the left has offered no coherent answer to the problems of young men, but it isn't the case that they offered no answers at all: Brotherhood and comradeship, international solidarity, self-organization and the fight against the oppressors have been core values of the left for ages. Unfortunately the left was ground to dust by capitalism and the last remnants of unions and other such movements which were always meant to empower individuals are struggling. They recently saw an upsurge again, but it remains to be seen if they can make a difference in the long run.
Unfortunately as long as men, such as the gamers you mention, sit behind the computer screen and think that good things should come to them without them having to do something themselves, they will always fall for the far-right's false promises of power and riches.
Yes, that’s because feminism is a movement for the emancipation of women.
Pretty sure intersectionality is a big part of modern feminism.
That's true and I am a big fan of it, but in order to find a place within insectional feminism, men have to create them. Men's Lib is one of those places.
I would agree that it's on liberal men, especially ones who had a "toxic" past and therefore can relate to the experience, to reach out, create media and engage in conversations.
You see, that's exactly the kind of discourse that leave a highway for fascist to convert those people. Your wrote all this text to basically say fuck you to these men, I won't help you, help yourself.
Now the far right does tell these men what to do, unlike the left. Obviously they will go with them, because that's the only support they get.
Feminist movement will not succeed if it doesn't incorporate men. And women need to be involved in creating a model for men. Otherwise men will simply fall back on the conservative misogyny like they're doing, and this model do have something for women. Feminist won't like it though.
I don't like it either. I like the feminist model. But there's absolutely nothing for men within it. And this is causing the backlash we can see today.
BTW individual responsibility is the liberal philosophy. Phylosophy that is perfectly fine with fascism if it must come to it. Fascists understand it perfectly, and their misogynistic philosophy is full of individualism. Feminism will not win if it embrace individualism.
I am sorry that you do not see my POV and with the danger to repeat myself: In order to get help, people need to seek help. It requires action. And that's the same for everyone: Men and women.
That's why places like Men's Lib exist: Some men took action and created a forum for men to discuss such matters, but these things will not come to someone who doesn't seek it.
Hey, just look at the article. Those men are looking for help, and they are finding it. It's just the far right that gives it. And here people are blinding themselves and pretending there is nothing more to do about it.
This place is a great start. It is what is needed. It's late to the party, but better late than never.
And it won't be enough.
I like the feminist model. But there’s absolutely nothing for men within it.
You seem to not be very familiar with feminism. Most obvious one is that feminism wants to give man and women a choice when it comes to their role in society. Like most liberal "leftist" movement it's about empowering the individual to be able to live a life that makes them happy by overcoming societal structures.
I don't know where you live to have such a narrow definition of it. And it certainly is true for some feminist groups. But feminism is a diverse movement. And some of them are definitely not open to men.
When you can read that the heterosexual couple must end because it's based on domination and it enforces patriarchy, at best it's a poor choice of words.
I don’t know where you live to have such a narrow definition of it.
I didn't give you a definition of feminism to beginn with, so not sure what you are talking about. I gave you an example of an aspect of feminism that clearly benefits men.
And some of them are definitely not open to men.
Sure, and some feminist believe that all piv sex is rape and than some others that trans-women are not women. Like you said, feminism is diverse and there are fringe opinions and genuine crazy people. But don't you think it's rather biased to define the whole movement by the most fringe elements of it?
When you can read that the heterosexual couple must end because it’s based on domination and it enforces patriarchy, a
Do you think that is a popular opinion with people considering themselves feminist or do you think it's rather radical extreme position hold by a few and refuted by the majority?
I don't know the sociology of the people who consider themselves feminists. I read and talk quite some with people, women in fact, who are activists. A published article that defend or promote feminist is activist by definition.
I've never seen a moderate feminist article. Would you have one that I can read?
Notice that I didn't say every feminist was extremist. Some are obviously more moderate than others. But by its nature, feminism is radical. The problem is that men are generally considered allies at best. They're not included. They're often excluded.
If some feminists include men, I'll very gladly learn about them, because I've never have before. And I consider myself informed.
If some feminists include men, I’ll very gladly learn about them, because I’ve never have before. And I consider myself informed.
You are not. There is a long tradition of feminist thought that makes very clear that feminism is inclusive of men. What's more, feminism very explicitly advocates for the betterment of men in the form of freeing them from oppressive gender roles. I suggest you check out works like Feminism Is for Everybody by bell hooks for an introduction into this pillar of feminism.
I'm curious where you live, since your experience is rather wildly different then mine.
What is a moderate feminism for you? Need to know before I go searching.
Also I'm curious what being included means for you - is considering men allies including them? What would satisfy for you the criteria of men being included?
These are the wrong questions. The question is how do men and women love each other after metoo? That is the question Andrew tate and the fascists are answering, in a reactionary way.
And Barby (the movie) is a good example of the feminist stance on this: feminists are basically saying "I don't want to be your doll, fuck off, dont try to love me". And while the first part is perfectly reasonable and sound, the second part is missing the point. And I realise here that it's not just me that are abandoned but also women here.
The feminist stance is understandable I guess: they don't want men to tell them what to be, so they won't tell men what to be either. But that's missing the point, the question that's being asked: how do men and women love eachother after metoo?
People want models, both to understand what to aim for, and to have something to dream about. There are strong women models now all over movies and games. But men are still the old one, and there's nothing but the old philosophy to answer the question of how do men and women love eachother after metoo. Because feminists abandoned this question.
And it cannot be either men or women to answer it. It must be discussed and agreed. Because women must like what men will be, and men must accept what women want. There is as much work to do on women than there is on men.
Final point: the answer cannot be a negative one. It cannot be "don't be a dick". Because after metoo most reasonable men understand that. The question is, if we're not to be dicks, what will we be? And I'm talking about seduction and romantic relationships here. The question the far right is answering. The question that matter when it comes to men and women relationships. Because no one cares if you want to be an astronaut or a fireman.
It's very concerning that you don't understand that you've just made an overall feminist argument.
Because feminists abandoned this question.
This is most certainly not true.
Because after metoo most reasonable men understand that. The question is, if we’re not to be dicks, what will we be? And I’m talking about seduction and romantic relationships here. The question the far right is answering.
The far right is answering with "let's just be dicks"?
The question is how do men and women love each other after metoo?
Sure we can switch the topic.
fuck off, dont try to love me”.
What the hell are you talking about? That has nothing to do with feminism and I struggle to understand how you arrived at the conclusion that after metoo women don't want to be loved anymore. Women don't want to be raped, harassed and then dismissed when they try to get help. That was the point of metoo.
how do men and women love eachother after metoo?
Respecting each other, here I gave you the answer.
But men are still the old one,
There are tons of positive role models for men out there that fit feminist bills. From Argagorn in LOTR to Aang in Avatar, if you are interested I can keep on going.
nd there’s nothing but the old philosophy to answer the question of how do men and women love eachother after metoo.
Yeah, because as I said metoo was about not being raped, harrassed and not dismissed - some rather basic things for a relationship. What answers do you exactly need?
And it cannot be either men or women to answer it. It must be discussed and agreed. Because women must like what men will be, and men must accept what women want.
But that is an individual question. There is no answer for everyone besides - respect others and their boundaries and then anything goes. There is no one archetype of men that all women find attractive and never was.
Final point: the answer cannot be a negative one. It cannot be “don’t be a dick”. Because after metoo most reasonable men understand that. The question is, if we’re not to be dicks, what will we be? And I’m talking about seduction and romantic relationships here.
You just misunderstood the answer. Again it's not about not being a dick, no one cares. It's about not raping, harassing and than dismissing women. And the answer the left is giving: consent. Make sure the other side is into what ever is going on and than you are free to do what ever you two want.
Ok, stay blind if you will. There's no problem. We will never know why men are turning fascist and mysogyne I guess.
You want to shine a light and help me out of blindness by pointing out where you disagree?
I disagree when you say that people should help themselves.
Where do I say that?
The movie Magnolia predicted this in 1999. Remember "respect the cock and tame the cunt"? Tom Cruise is basically playing Andrew Tate in this movie.