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Counter-argument since I'm in a contrary mood. A scene like this is only possible in a democracy. In a genuinely authoritarian state, there are no protests on this scale. And certainly none where the protesters have uncovered faces and openly carry guns. And absolutely certainly none where those protesters are allowed by the police to enter the parliament building in order to avoid bloodshed, which is what happened here. In China this would have been either a revolution or, much more likely, a massacre, i.e. Tiananmen Square.
It's cold comfort, but the way this day played out was in fact a demonstration of how resilient US democracy is. The challenge is to stop the system being tested like this again.
Oh, yeah, like the protests in their universities. They were tolerated too, right?
A similar interpretation was made of that photo in Europe these four years, now we have understood that it represents something different.
In the photo there are people who do not want more democracy (stop the count they shouted) and now we see that they are the majority, they were in 2016 and in 2020 only the shock of covid made them not be. The US population no longer wants democracy and this photo represents them.
Counterpoint: reports suggest that most of them earnestly believe that the election was stolen. They themselves think - they really think - that they were trying to save democracy. Obviously something has really failed here. But it might not be democracy.
That's even worse. A person who doesn't want democracy is a bad thing, but an idiot who destroys it trying to protect it is much more dangerous. The first one can be reasoned with, the second one is too stupid.
In any case, my point is the same, whether intentional or accidental, the people who do not accept democracy in America are the majority today and that photo represents them.
the people who do not accept democracy in America are the majority today
This is obviously quite the claim and it would need citation. Or alternatively a boring debate about the exact meaning of democracy.
But I do agree that this is not a good situation. And if I had to put money on it then I would bet that it will get worse, not better. But nothing's inevitable.
Dude, look at the election results from not a year ago. Some guy showed up saying you wouldn't have to vote again and he got more votes than everyone else. Do you need polls on this?
At best, the sum of those who are in favor of overthrowing democracy and those who don't care is overwhelming.
The other interpretation of the "won't have to vote again" comment is that he meant "vote on the issues that you care about" (because he would fix them). That does feel more plausible than intentionally telling people "I plan to confiscate your vote".
But sure, I agree that a ton of people at least don't care. Particularly young people, unfortunately. But that's not just America, that's worldwide. I blame education, ignorance of history. With humans it's always two steps forward, one step back. We have to keep making the same mistake. It's a cycle, philosophers were already noticing in ancient Greece. Well, it seems the wars of the 20th century against dictatorship are already forgotten and now we're going to make the same mistake again.
Of course, everything can be given a different interpretation, but what he literally said is there.
You can also think if the confederates just wanted more power for the states or if the Nazis just wanted to recover German pride, But neither the South politicians nor those of Germany from the thirties, normally receive the benefit of the doubt, why should the MAGA?
believe that the election was stolen
ofcourse they do, they are part of the Maga Cult " Cult is a term often applied to new religious movements and other social groups which have unusual, and often extreme, religious, spiritual, or philosophical beliefs and rituals. Extreme devotion to a particular person, object, or goal is another characteristic often ascribed to cults."
Many problems and wars have been about ( forms of) religions. Maga isn't any different. Though, I am using the word "religion" here in a broader metaphysical/philosophical meaning. Belief-system maybe.?
Sure. It looks like a classic personality cult. Like Mussolini's in the 1930s, with the difference that Mussolini was intelligent and cultured.
*Plurality
More people decided to just not show up than voted for either candidate.
Not saying that's better, it's honestly decidedly worse... but presenting it as though they represent the Majority of Americans is wildly inaccurate.
The majority of Americans would rather sit on their ass and wait for someone else to fix the problem... or for the entire thing to collapse in on itself... than actually fight for a better future.
Oh is fine, I rectify what I said, this photo does not represent most of the Americans, represent the majority of the Americans who care about something, the rest do not care about shit.
To me, the background story is ofc that Trump & friends riled the protester during Biden's rule, and never acknowleged their defeat. Then this month, Trump's admin arrive at the (AI Paris summit and later in the München Security Summit and lecture us. This "picture " could await similar fate as the Tiananmansquere picture, which was deleted in the Chinese internet. The current reality is that their democracy, has become a parody of itself, unfortunately. Their checks and balances failing, suggests the fragility of democracy. This is ofc exactly the US claim, while it's something Europe is advocating for and trying to defend.
Don't know if this make any sense?!
Never posted a meme before, and I stole this one because I liked it.
Well personally I'm not completely convinced. After all, if not America, who? There are very few countries that can credibly "teach us about democracy". Germany? Sure! Well, certainly for a few decades at least, until a few years ago.
Because, deep down, I think JD Vance is on to something. It's not healthy in a democracy when 20% of the voters are being systematically excluded. At the very least we need to ask why those voters feel the way they do, and try to find a way of including them. That's what democracy means: allowing the people into the room where decisions are made. The firewall is not a success of German democracy, it's an admission of Germany democracy's failure.
But I do agree that the smug tone of Vance's lecture was infuriating.
Mm interesting, first you state you want to be contrarian, but now you are saying he's on to something. Am I reading you right?
Because, that's a whole different discussion.. I'm not sure I feel the need to have one (in this forum), because it was a meme. So up2u what you make of it.
It's a complex subject. A contrarian is surely anyone who doesn't hold cartoonishly simply views. America's 240-year experiment in constitutional government is genuinely unique in the world. I find that admirable. The fact that the current US president literally attempted a coup and was then forgiven by the voters - not so admirable. Germany's post-war constitution and political stability are also somewhat legendary and impressive. But Germany's ability to create so many voters who reject the system, and then to further piss them off by locking them out of that system - not so impressive. It's complex.
Don't feed the jaguar.
Alas, debate seems to be permitted in this community.
What was Vance saying? Missed that.
He criticized a lot of European stands and politics including the German agreement between all democratic parties to not work with the extreme right AfD. This agreement is often called "Brandmauer" (firewall). The AfD will probably receive around 20% of the vote in next Sunday's election.
counter-counter-argument: how long before this isn't possible in the US anymore?
Sure, that's fair. I'm just trying to counter vibes with some uncomfortable facts, because vibes alone I personally find pretty boring.
The USA has been democratic for quite a while, depending on definitions. Since either the 1960s (the Civil Rights Act), the 1920s (female suffrage), or the 1860s (male suffrage). It's had the same constitution, based on checks and balances, since the 1780s. Fully 240 years.
During that period, most of America's peers have gone through all kinds of completely non-democratic experiences: revolutions, civils wars, uprisings, communism, fascism.
Stepping back and looking at the big picture, I say that yes, America still does have something to teach us about democracy.