Question
Question
I want to preface this by saying that we have a zero tolerance policy for transphobia. Your comment will be removed and you will be banned if you spout transphobia here. Our existence is not up for debate.
That said, how do you differentiate being transgender and being trans racial?
I'm curious how to answer this question in a good faith debate with someone. Emotionally I know that they're not the same and that one is wrong and the other is not wrong, but I'm unsure as to why that is and am curious if anyone else has given any thought about it.
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the only people who care about race are racists, it literally does not matter what race you are (if you insist it does because society treats different races differently, then that's a racist sentiment that you should not hold), it does not affect your life as a person, except in ways imposed by racists.
gender is something that will affect your life as a person no matter what, sure there are also societally imposed notions about gender that on a surface level could be compared to race, but they function very different on a fundamental level.
think about it this way, if we lived in a society with no racism or sexism then what color your skin is would not have a significant impact on your life, where as the gender you have would have a significant impact on your life.
edit: i want to clear up some confusion, our society is fundamentally built on racist ideals, im not trying to erase that or suggest that it isnt a reality anymore, or that we, as a society, can just stop being racist, that isnt how this works of course.
im not trying to say that you should not care about being oppressed by racists, or that your life isnt affected by people holding racist ideals, only that it shouldnt be this way. this is idealistic and not the reality we live in, but the reality i want to live in.
instead of saying "it literally does not matter what race you are (if you insist it does because society treats different races differently, then that's a racist sentiment that you should not hold)" it would be more accurate for me to have said that "saying racism matters because racist say it matters is stupid".
this is more in line with the intent i wanted to convey to the reader, however i can see how my original statement could be interpreted very different than i intended. thanks everybody for helping me state my argument more effectively
if you insist it does because society treats different races differently, then that's a racist sentiment that you should not hold
Is it racist to acknowledge my white privilege?
I'm sure it's possible to be racist about it, but I think your actions are up to you. I don't know you.
my point was you have to choose to engage in racism for it to be a thing, it doesn't exist if we don't let it, unlike gender.
You absolutely do not. Implicit and unconscious racial bias is a huge part of the issue
participating in institutionally racist system, that position racism as the norm, is indeed a very large problem that most people don't know they are participating in yea
unfortunately that institutionally racist system is society, and most people don't fully understand the consequences of their actions, and non participation in society isn't the answer.
we can't just flip a switch and end racism by just pretending it all went away, but I do believe that if we keep making progress then one day, we can move on and create a society that works for us all.
unfortunately that institutionally racist system is society, and most people don’t fully understand the consequences of their actions, and non participation in society isn’t the answer.
This directly contradicts your first reply, in which you say the only people who care about race are racists. If are part of an institutionally racist system that targets them (which they are), then they are going to think about race, because it impacts every aspect of their life, and saying that it's only racists that think about it completely erases that reality.
Like saying the only people who think about gender are transphobes and sexists. It's just blatantly incorrect, and erases the lived experience of many people who are actively targeted by institutional bias against them
The ideal world you're talking about in your first reply is made actively harder to achieve by denying the reality in which we're currently living, and it comes across as a racist dogwhistle. The only reason I haven't removed it is because your later posts make it clear that it isn't intended that way, but I am going to need you to edit your first post so it doesn't come across as erasing the experiences of people targeted by racism
your either targeted by the system, or you benefit from it, my comments about the people who dont understand or care, are in the latter camp, the people who are targets of the system, i would argue, dont care about race, at least not in the way racists do, they care about being oppressed, and racism is the tool that is leveraged to do the oppressing.
at the end of the day, it doesnt matter what avenue of discrimination they use to oppress people, but it is highly valuable to understand their avenues of attack and tactics they use to trick people into believing bigoted rhetoric. thats why im here engaging in this conversation, not trying to deny the reality we live in.
your either targeted by the system, or you benefit from it,
And either way, you think about the system in question, but your original post still says that the only people who think about race are racists, ignoring the reality that people targeted by racism have no choice but to think about race. Thinking about race because racist systems target you does not make you racist, and disempowers the targets of racism trying to address the issue. Downplaying that experience is a racist dogwhistle. I need you to edit/clarify that post to include some of the context you've provided in your later posts, to make it clear that it's not a dog whistle, otherwise, I will have to remove the post
my point was you have to choose to engage in racism for it to be a thing
I don't see how this makes sense at all
I think they’re saying that women and men will live inherently different lives, regardless of sexism, but people of different races only do because we as a larger society continue to reinforce that. I don’t know if I agree with the first part though. It’s kind of hard to imagine, honestly.
I hope this isn’t considered transphobia on this sub, but I think gender might also cease to exist in a completely nonsexist society. I see sexism mostly as the imposition of gender norms on people and if people were no longer forced into boxes by the culture, they might cease to identify with gender roles at all. To put it another way, I think there would be no dissonance between people wearing frilly dresses and practicing Jiu-Jitsu, so people could choose the individual things that appeal to them without “picking a camp,” if that makes sense.
I do think it’s utopian enough to be a moot point though, because we still see a dissonance between liking football and warhammer, even though both are masc coded. We put people into so many boxes, even aside from race and gender, I don’t think we’ll get rid of the most fundamental distinction we recognize among people (maybe second after age?)
Removing gender from society would resolve much of my dysphoria, but not all of it.
I'd still have struggled with the body I was born with, and I'd still have needed to deal with that reality, even in a genderless society.
To put it another way, I think there would be no dissonance between people wearing frilly dresses and practicing Jiu-Jitsu
This is a huge misunderstanding of trans identity.
Trans people aren't trans because "dresses" or the like. If we're able to come out trans and deal with the reality and harassment that brings, then we could also simply have dressed in a way that society doesn't like, or broke other gender norms, without coming out as trans if that's all it took, because those things are nearly always easier than coming out as trans.
I think that would fall under the same category as any other medically prescribed plastic surgery, like reconstructive surgery, but it wouldn’t necessarily be linked to a gender. A person would just still be a person and other people would still be able to see whether they have breasts or a beard, but that doesn’t mean they’d draw any additional conclusions from that fact. It’s, again, really hard to imagine.
All I'm saying is that trans people would still exist in one form or another in a genderless society. The words might be different, and we might conceptualise ourselves and the context we exist in differently, but we would still be here.
To use your wording, I'd still have to have "picked a camp", because the one I was placed in to by biology was a source of distress, and for many of us, that distress would still exist in some form even in a genderless society
I also think there would still be trans people, but no gender (splitting hairs here). People would still be dysphoric about their body (not necessarily parts, but also processes), but that would not necessarily be related to a gender. A person could of course choose a gender, they’re not outlawed in my ideal post sexism world, but it’s kind of like identifying as a jock or a drama kid after high school: it would be fucked up for someone else to assume it of you, but feel free to identify with it. If you do, you might have to explain to others what it means.
That sounds like my kind of world
race was invented to justify slavery, our society is built on this notion, but it doesn't have to be, we can create a society without race as we know it, but we aren't, were continuing to engage with racism.
Acknowledging racism in our society is not "continuing to engage". We can't just cover our eyes and ears and suddenly live in a better world.
I don't want to engage in racism will people stop being racist to me now
hm I dunno, if someone wants to change the color of their skin, or the shape of their eyes, or their culture etc, I dont see a problem with that at all
I'm not saying you can't do that if you want to, body modding should be the norm not the exception like it is currently. people should be able to look how they want.