Fight me on it
Fight me on it
Every time people lament changes to the lore that amount to "not every member of species X is irredeemably evil" and claim the game is removing villains from it, I think how villains of so-caleld evil species fall into two cathegories: a) bland and boring and b)have something else, unrelated to their species going on for them, that makes them interesting.
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Evil races give someone the PCs don't have to feel bad about killing. Obviously depends on your party, but if they befriend the hungry wolf pack and negotiate with the bandits, then a band of definitely evil goblins gives the barbarian something to smash without worrying if they're killing little Timmy's dad.
Edited to add: And if "he's an evil race" is your only reason for them being a major villain, that's bad storytelling. About as bad as "yes they're going to help you because they're good," and not for some kind of benefit to them, monetary or spiritual or whatever.
If you can kill something without feeling bad because of its race, that's fucked up. A group of goblin bandits can be fun, but they're villains because of the bandit thing, not the goblin thing. Why should a group defined by plundering travelers be more acceptable than a group defined by being short with green skin?
That said, the undead are, more often than not, fair game. Undead are a mockery of the life that came before and a defilement of their corpse, so killing them is a way of honouring the dead.
My players ran across some Imperial guardsmen killing off skeletons, only for the orcs accompanying them to protest that they were destroying "registered cultural artifacts!" The orcs didn't have much, and they would leave their bones to their children to help them eke out a meager existence.
Why should a group defined by plundering travelers be more acceptable than a group defined by being short with green skin?
Because in a fantasy world, where we can know for 100% certainty that gods created life, it's not impossible for those gods to have made a certain creature type objectively evil.
In some settings, Orcs are the way they are because their god is the last one to pick a place for them to live, gets pissy, and decides that "Fuck you guys! If that's how you want to play it, my orcs are going to plunder the shit out of your guys' lands!"
In other settings, there has to be some kind of cosmic balance to things, and some gods are just evil because there has to be a natural counterpart to good, and so the creatures they create are just inherently evil.
I think the issue is with this kind of debate is that that it's referred to as "race". We don't really have a one-for-one on this IRL (because Goblins don't exist) and we don't refer to animals as "different races".
No, sorry, that still doesn't answer my question.
Cosmically controlled goblins are doing the same thing as bandits, but the bandits made the choice to do evil things and the goblins didn't get a chance to refuse. Surely, the people choosing to do evil are worse than those forced to do evil, right? So why are bandits better than goblins?
The suggestions you gave fall kinda flat to me, really. No matter what the in-universe reason is, the DM made the universe. "It's what my character would do" doesn't excuse bad behaviour, and neither does "it's what my gods decided." You're the one who made them do that. You're the one that decided an entire culture of thinking, feeling people are born objectively evil and can be killed en masse. And that's fucked up.
You’re the one that decided an entire culture of thinking, feeling people are born objectively evil and can be killed en masse. And that’s fucked up.
I think that's where the issue falls apart. You want them to be thinking feeling people who can change. They don't have to be. If an evil deity creates Goblins, and makes them evil for whatever reason, they can inherently lack the ability to freely think and evolve.
And there's nothing "fucked up" about it.
Look at some villains who are just objectively evil. People point-out the Adventure Time Lich all the time, and that thing is just evil. There's no point trying to argue with it. No point trying to convince it to right its wrongs. It doesn't care, because it's just evil.
Goblins have language and culture and religion, and that all requires the ability to think, feel and grow. Making them evil means that either your worldbuilding is nonsense or you've made a thinking, feeling group of people inherently evil from birth. If you want a group that doesn't think, feel or grow, then do what I said in the first place and use undead.
Stop saying it's an evil deity doing these things. It's just you. You're doing these things. Don't be a coward.
Are you seriously trying to justify Boblin the Goblin being evil because of the Lich from Adventure time? One is the cosmic manifestation of the death of all things, and the other is short and green. That's not remotely the same.
And most objectively evil villains in fiction are, I shall point out, human. Nothing to do with their species. A group of human bandits and a group of goblin bandits are equally evil. And at no point have you given any explanation as to why that wouldn't be the case.
Either answer the fucking question or shut the fuck up.
Edit: It would appear they chose to shut the fuck up. I would have preferred they answer the question, but this is acceptable.
Sorry, I didn't realize you were exclusively arguing in bad faith/trolling. I'll stop responding.
Y-you...you do realize the lich, as liches generally work this way, was probably once human, right? And is choosing to believe all life must be quelled? Like...that's an example of an irredeemably evil person who is actively choosing to be irredeemably evil. Moron.
You should probably have specified mindless undead, not just all undead. In fact...anything mindlessly violent. Demons, zombies, etc.
Everybody loves zombies - Shane Lacy Hensley
Your players care about race when murdering people. If you want to murder people then just do it.
Also that's what we have Nazi metaphor's for
Szass Tam, Sauron, SecCom, The Empire, etc.