Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)
Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)
I would like to premise this with the following:
- The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I've found what works best for me.
- However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.
- I don't literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.
- I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let's keep it that way 😜.
Motivation
I've had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains' IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I've been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I'm forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn't allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I'm interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don't think they'll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that's why I would love to start using either one of them.
Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I'm remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn't force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.
My setup:
- I'm on a custom image of uBlue using their startingpoint as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.
- As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used Distrobox to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over here. But I'm not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that's at least as good.
- If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.
- If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don't expect any issues, but I might be wrong.
Questions:
- First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?
- Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what's yet to come?
- Google Trends suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.
- For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?
- While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each 'platform' has to offer. So:
If you like VSCode, and want the longevity of FOSS, you can switch to https://vscodium.com/
It still leaves the option of using non-FOSS plugins, but makes it much more obvious which bits are FOSS or not. It is, otherwise, an identical experience with VSCode.
The Vim keybindings for VSCode/VSCodium are ridiculously good: https://github.com/VSCodeVim/Vim
As a diehard Vim user, VSCodium with VSCodeVim is a terrific no-nonsense combination.
Edit: Regarding Vim plugin packs, I honestly only ever had a bad time with curated plugin collections. I don't think the default settings in Vim are that bad anymore, and are trivial to change as you go when something annoys you.
So ratherb than picking a plugin pack, I recommend spending some time in
:vimtutorto learn about various quality of life settings, and then set them as you prefer in your.vimrc.Edit 2:
Regarding the 'split' in Vim options, Vim is growing up into a protocol, rather than just an editor. As a 'trapped in Vim' user, back in the day, I'm delighted that essentially every serious editor now supports Vim keybindings*.
*Disclaimer: I will 'no true scottsman' all day long if someone names me a 'serious editor' without Vim keybindings. Let's all not go there, I'm too childish for that conversation.
One important thing you should know about Vim is that, VimScript, the native way to extend the original Vim, is an unholy abomination that is best left to rot in it's forgotten grave. It's the only reason I moved on to VSCodium, which can be extended with TypeScript, an unholy abomination that looks like it's going places.
If you like VSCode, and want the longevity of FOSS, you can switch to https://vscodium.com/
For some reason I had a very bad experience with running plugins on VSCodium. IIRC, there was something about plugin support being a lot worse for some reason. But it might also have been related to something else.
The Vim keybindings for VSCode/VSCodium are ridiculously good
It indeed seems to be a lot better than what I was expecting.
As a diehard Vim user, VSCodium with VSCodeVim is a terrific no-nonsense combination.
But, once again, I'm afraid that eventually VS Code (and thus by extension VSCodium) will be forsaken for some reason. Thus making me, once again, deal with the pain of switching to another IDE, become accustomed to it. Not being as extensible as Emacs/Neo(Vim) anyway etc etc. Like, I believe we're always one 'evolution'/'development' removed from losing our favorite IDE. For example, Jetbrains has been developing their upcoming Fleet IDE. IIUC, it's their version of VS Code; which honestly is cool. But, does beg the question if it will one day replace the fleet of dedicated programming language IDEs that Jetbrains currently supports...
EDIT: lol I only noticed you had edited it after I had commented it.
Edit: Regarding Vim plugin packs, I honestly only ever had a bad time with curated plugin collections. I don’t think the default settings in Vim are that bad anymore, and are trivial to change as you go when something annoys you.
Would that only include Vim plugin packs like SpaceVim etc? Or actually the premade NeoVim 'configs'/'distributions'?
Regarding the ‘split’ in Vim options, Vim is growing up into a protocol, rather than just an editor. As a ‘trapped in Vim’ user, back in the day, I’m delighted that essentially every serious editor now supports Vim keybindings*.''
True. Great insight. But, it sometimes seems to me as if most implementation are rather lazy ones; in the sense that they only feature a very small feature set that Vi(m) provides. I might be wrong though*.
While I get the longevity argument (Vim and Emacs have a great track record), I've found that it is FOSS vs proprietary that causes beloved tech to die.
VSCode is, by a wide margin, now the most popular IDE. If MS abandons it, there's a fleet of us ready to continue using VSCodium.
Another consideration for you is that Vim is, by a huge margin, the most popular tool for doing difficult edits in an ultra light or restricted server environment. It's absolutely worth learning for that use case, which I keep being promised I won't need again, between each of the hundreds of times I've needed it.
Edit: The usual issue with plugins on VSCodium, out of the box, is that it defaults to a completely different plugin set, due to MS license rules about their plugin repository. It's trivial to switch it back with a config file edit, which is, admittedly, a little buried, in the project FAQ. The VSCodium plugin repository is growing better over time, but there's not good awareness of it yet by most plugin developers.
You could also consider: https://helix-editor.com/
It does more than vim out if the box and it has similar but different key bindings. The key bindings are more intuitive and easier to learn in my opinion.
It is missing a few features still (e.g.plugins) but I have been using helix for a while and it is really fun.
Helix is great. And it's written in Rust so I feel pretty comfortable working in the codebase. The maintainers are friendly. I think it will eventually leave other modal terminal editors in the dust, considering rate of development.
It has shortcomings from being young, but they are rapidly disappearing. The philosophy of being mostly "batteries included" is so refreshing compared to the configuration hell of NeoVim.
And it’s written in Rust so I feel pretty comfortable working in the codebase.
Rust, indeed, is a big plus.
It has shortcomings from being young, but they are rapidly disappearing. The philosophy of being mostly “batteries included” is so refreshing compared to the configuration hell of NeoVim.
While its shortcomings might eventually be ironed out. Do you expect it to be as ubiquitous as Vi(m) has become? If not, do you expect Helix to improve its Vim implementation or rather become so popular that it can rival Vi(m) in being 'ever-present'?
Thanks for mentioning Helix! I've definitely considered Helix. But as 'its Vim implementation' messes the structure of its 'sentences', it seemed somewhat detrimental with respects to improving my Vi(m)-game. Furthermore, I am not confident that it will continue to thrive 20 years down the line; while both Emacs and Vi(m) have already proven with their respective track records how robust their ecosystems are.
It is missing a few features still (e.g.plugins) but I have been using helix for a while and it is really fun.
Which is another concern 😅. For whatever it's worth, I believe Lapce to be more promising.
Oh! Emacs fanboy here!
I think that one of emacs' surprising great points is that there is a plugin for a lot of smaller languages. If you're working with a language that has no special text editor love at all you're likely better off using vim but if the language authors made a plugin for their language, it's likely either going to be for emacs or vscode.
As for distribution
vanilla emacsDoom emacs. Spacemacs has a bespoke customization system involving layers that is not all that friendly towards copy & pasting code from the internet. Doom emacs customization leans more to the vanilla side which can help if you need to solve a problem in your workflow.(Obviously vanilla emacs works best in that regard, but I can understand not wanting to start with default emacs straight away)
I think that one of emacs’ surprising great points is that there is a plugin for a lot of smaller languages. If you’re working with a language that has no special text editor love at all you’re likely better off using vim but if the language authors made a plugin for their language, it’s likely either going to be for emacs or vscode.
Very interesting. I didn't know that Emacs was better at providing plugins. Would you happen to know to what that is attributable?
Spacemacs has a bespoke customization system involving layers that is not all that friendly towards copy & pasting code from the internet. Doom emacs customization leans more to the vanilla side which can help if you need to solve a problem in your workflow.
Did I understand you correct in that customizing Spacemacs is a completely different beast. So knowledge acquired related to it doesn't translate well to Vanilla/Doom Emacs and vice versa?
Would you happen to know to what that is attributable?
Not sure but I suspect it's 2 things:
- the default editor is kinda shit
- but it is really good at editing it's configuration language: elisp
So people have a need to change their editor, and a good configuration language to do it in. Moreover, emacs secretly comes with a bunch of built-in features, not enabled by default. It also helps that emacs is not terminal-based, allowing users to do stuff in emacs that you aren't able to do in a normal terminal (like viewing images, or searching for images on the web. Did I already say that emacs has a built-in (primitive) web browser?) and generally means that emacs users "live" in emacs, as they already have access to so many features.
If you compare this to vim
- good text editing experience by default
- vimscript wasn't all that great (lua is better but neovim is still a very good editor so the drive to fix all it's warts isn't quite there)
- it is terminal based, so you can't do some of the funny stuff that emacs allows you to do
Did I understand you correct in that customizing Spacemacs is a completely different beast?
Correct.
So knowledge acquired related to it doesn't translate well to Vanilla/Doom Emacs and vice versa?
I wouldn't quite say that. It is more that you are probably going to need some prerequisite emacs knowledge to make the best use out of spacemacs' layer system. To figure out how spacemacs works, you first need to have a basic idea of how emacs works. Doom is a bit closer to the metal, so you need to know less in order to properly customize it
If you're going to use NeoVim, use Kickstart.nvim.
It seems to offer a leaner approach. If you've used any of the ones mentioned in the OP, would you consider offering a more elaborate comparison between them?
I've used LunarVim and they make a lot of opinionated changes from the default behavior of NeoVim. These changes are undocumented and must be discovered and explored organically, while the default behavior is well documented.
It's also difficult to update and change for your own use until you become familiar enough with all of the customizations and packages they've included.
Kickstart.nvim ads only a few packages that are very popular and provides a base upon which you can customize as needed.
I like Doom Emacs
Have you used Spacemacs as well? If so, would you mind offering some more insight regarding either one of them and specifically whatever made you like Doom Emacs?
I think Crazazy had a good take about Doom in regards to customization. I’ll add that there’s some preconfigured plugins for most popular languages in Doom (complete with LSP) that makes it a breeze to go from install to feeling like home. You just have to uncomment them in the config file and reload emacs.
And one advantage is that, these plugins aren’t pre-installed, so they don’t load when you start emacs! Which makes doom emacs quite lean and the startup times are way faster.
I'm interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will
As long as you pick up shortcuts from any editor you're used to and can implement them or something similar in any hackable editor, you're growing long term.
Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don't think they'll cease to exist in the upcoming decades
Neovim will exist on account of being a lightweight refresh on Vim that, due to issues with the Vim owner, was able to gain enough momentum to take off.
Emacs I'm not so sure. If you've checked the news anytime for Doom Emacs, you can see the maintainer mentioning how it's become progressively difficult to maintain the project. I'd imagine it's a similar story for plugins and other derivatives. People have attempted remaking Emacs from scratch, but there was not enough momentum for it, so that went under.
There are a lot of beautiful plugins for both Emacs and Vim that personally, I wish could exist as programs separate from these editors. Have you had a look at the design philosophy behind Kakoune?
"Kakoune is expected to run on a Unix-like system alongside a lot of text-based tools, and should make it easy to interact with these tools. For example, sorting lines should be done using the Unix sort command, not with an internal implementation."
This would stop so many tears being shed for deprecated plugins if they just focused on being a separate program that can interact with whatever code editor you want, be it VSCode, Vim, Emacs, etc.
I also recommend reading this article here that goes more in-depth on this point and has a comparison of vim, helix and kakoune.
Emacs I’m not so sure. If you’ve checked the news anytime for Doom Emacs, you can see the maintainer mentioning how it’s become progressively difficult to maintain the project. I’d imagine it’s a similar story for plugins and other derivatives. People have attempted remaking Emacs from scratch, but there was not enough momentum for it, so that went under.
This is news to me. Thank you so much for mentioning this! I'll have to look into this.
Have you had a look at the design philosophy behind Kakoune?
I actually hadn't yet, but I did just now. And I'd have to say that I liked what I read. There's for sure a lot out there that's worthy of being explored and I've become confident that Kakoune deserves to be further explored as well. Thank you for informing me on that!
I also recommend reading this article here that goes more in-depth on this point and has a comparison of vim, helix and kakoune.
I haven't read the article yet. But I'm pretty sure it's going to be another excellent read. Please feel free to share more from where these are coming from 😊! Thank you!
I like Spacevim a lot (inspired by SpacEmacs), you can use neovim as the underlying vim package as well. Then update init.toml with whatever layers/plugins you want
I like Spacevim a lot
Have you tried any of the ones mentioned in the OP? If so, would you be so kind to elaborate upon why you prefer SpaceVim over the others?
(inspired by SpacEmacs)
Interesting. Would you be so kind to elaborate on what this entails?
you can use neovim as the underlying vim package as well. Then update init.toml with whatever layers/plugins you want
That seems kinda hella streamlined and straightforward, which is honestly pretty cool. Is this different from how it works on any of the '(Neo)Vim distros' and/or by default?
I've tried a few IDEs, mainly Microsoft ones as of recently, but I still prefer my neospacevim setup. Microsoft has a very nice debugger and other useful features for navigating large software projects, but even on my 3080 12th Gen i7 rig with 32GB the plugins I use end up slowing things down. Plus, a similar debugger interface can normally be found in an init.toml layer
With neospacevim, I can specify which plugins get loaded for which file types, so my LaTeX plugins don't interfere with my Python plugins for example.
Also the macro language locks me into vim, I even installed vimium keybinds for my browser. Spacevim is nice because you can see all the available keybinds option trees by pressing Space.
I mentioned spacevim/SpacEmacs because your post focused on emacs/vim, if you do choose either to make an IDE in I would imagine SpacEmacs/spacevim might be a little closer to an IDE than a text editor.
Spacevim is nice because it will auto install packages declared in the init.toml, sometimes with vanilla vim or neovim you need a plugin manager installed separately