If Israel de-occupies Palestinian and Lebanese land, stops blockading Gaza, stops blowing up chunks of it's neighbors, then it removes any moral grounds for them to continue fighting Israel. Instead we're to believe Israel is the defender when they've occupied their neighbors for 50+ years.
All of them. If you want to compare killing civilians there's a graphic around here showing that Israel has killed far more, every year. Of course I wish they'd target active military and civilians involved specifically in Israel's MIC. But if Israel's strikes on hospitals are justified then so are the ones you're worried about. You can't have it both ways.
So, would you kill every single Israeli civilian if they were unable to leave Israel? Because that's what Hamas and Hezbollah want to do, with the assistance of Iran.
They don't have to go anywhere. They just don't get a religious ethnostate any more. Let Palestine be a free democracy and they are welcome to live in a free society, no apartheid.
I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that's what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.
An actual, mutually peaceful solution would be better. Hamas has turned down or broken ceasefire after ceasefire. There is no reason to trust them at this point.
Israel do not want peace and keep expanding illegal settlements to make it impossible to have a two state solution. Israel never stop killing Palestinians even before Hamas was ever created. As long as there is occupation you can't expect the oppressed to not take vengeance
The various surrounding states have been trying to destroy Israel since its inception as well. Just like Iran is funding and arming Hamas and Hezbollah today. I don't need to tell you that all three are incredibly oppressive regimes.
Why would native people accept people who came from Europe to build an state in an already populated place? Zionists early leaders admitted that they want to whole land. Like Israel first prime Minister ever said this : "
after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine" and Israel first president said : "partition might be only a temporary arrangement for the next twenty to twenty-five years"
Arabs did not intend to take revenge after the 48 loss yet Israel decided to colonize the West bank and Gaza. Israelis 6th prime minister admitted this : "The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him"
Hamas has turned down or broken ceasefire after ceasefire.
Stop consuming Israeli propaganda. Seriously, at this point you're just embarasing yourself. For further reading see the 2008 and the 2012 ceasefire deals, which Israel actively refused to abide by.
I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that's what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.
Id rather they be tried and convicted like we did to the Nazis at the Nuremeberg trials, but I'll settle for them leaving, sure. Why must the Palestinians accept their presence when their entire presence was on the mass displacement and genocide of their people? They're not even sorry for any of it, they're literally doubling down on it all and continuing it on a scale never seen before.
Why are you so shocked that militia groups were formed to counter an oppressive genocidal colony? Also, keep in mind Israel literally helped prop Hamas up to delegtimize the Palestinians in the eyes of the international community. It just came back to bite them in the ass.
The population of Israel is almost 10 million people. Much like Trump's plan to deport around that many brown people, it's only doable with concentration camps.
Maybe the solution to genocide isn't more genocide.
I've always thought a disarmed single state solution with a protected right of return to the country (not the specific land parcel) would be a hilarious end to Israel. Let actual democracy destroy the apartheid state.
Majority of Israel support what their government is doing in Gaza. This won't end just because a foreign power decides to enforce a ceasefire and maybe some kind of simple recognition of Palestinian statehood. There's way too much bad blood, and most of it is on Israel's hands. If this happens we'll have a middle eastern version of North and South Korea. And given how the US backs Israel unconditionally, it's only a matter of time before they re-attempt their settlement of all of Palestine. Because who's going to stop them?
Okay, so where should they go? If Israel is dissolved and the territory handed back to the Palestinian people, there will be a massive ethnic cleansing at the hands of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran. Extracting every single Israeli would create yet another refugee crisis somewhere in the world - speaking strictly in terms of how to materially support all these people.
Ethnic Cleansing has always been a cornerstone of Zionism.
Origins of Zionism
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a 'modern' way to 'solve' the 'Jewish Question' of Europe.
Since at least the 1860's, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it's backing of the movement in order to 'solve' the 'Jewish Question' while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
That's when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be 'Transferred' to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction
that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets 'Transferred' to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.
Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
Otzma Jehudit is part of the Israeli Government coalition, it consists mainly of internationally wanted terrorists. and you want to bat for these terrorists? the ones who have been preaching the 14 words as a justification for genocide?
Assuming that's true, that's one group within the government. Find them, try them, and imprison them. On the other side are three entire genocidal terrorist regimes. Will you side with them? What do you think we should do with them?
we don't need to fucking find them, they are open, they give speeches about how starving and killing every Palestinian is a moral good on a daily basis. they ARE the government, who's going to put them in front of a judge and find them guilty, themselves? you are literally supporting a genocidal terrorist regime.
considering that all three of these regimes are not committing genocide at the moment, Iran not even interested in said genocide and the other two only existing because they are a resistance movement against Israel. yes, I think you can make a very compelling case that said one genocidal terrorist regime is worse than the others.
Hezbollah was relatively quiet before the war kicked off, Hamas was supported by the Israeli state under Netanyahu to act as a spoiler towards the PAs attempt at a diplomatic 2-state solution, and Israel has been in power for the past 70 years. Hamas and Hezbollah literally only exist because Israel is an expansionist apartheid state.
If Iran isn't interested in the genocide, why do they fund and arm Hamas and Hezbollah? And Israel supported Hamas as an opposition to the PLO, which was a major terrorist organization at the time. Do you think they intentionally created Hamas as an excuse to get their own people bombed?
Israel supported Hamas as an opposition to the PLO
the PLO didn't fucking exist anymore when Hamas being supported by the Israeli government, Hamas started out as a humanitarian aid group affiliated with the Muslim brotherhood and radicalized before the second intifada, they were supported to undermine the PA who had been created as part of the Oslo Accords (that Israel then ignored), the most prominent example f this being when the IDF conducted air strikes against Fatah (the actual PA government) during the Hamas - Fatah civil war.
Yes the Israeli government helped create Hamas to undermine any attempt at negotiation towards a two-state solution, and a few dead Jews are no biggie, in fact they died as martyrs to justify genocide, you know eggs and omelets, this isn't out of the ordinary behavior for genocidal regimes.
Calling the people you dislike “terrorists” to avoid critical thinking about the atrocities (including genocide) of your own side isn’t really the gotcha you think it is.
I’m not sure that there is credible evidence of Iran and its affiliates targeting civilians the same way that the occupation has, their acts all seem to be targeting military installations rather than civilian targets. The occupation primarily targets civilians and civilian infrastructure.
That was a military attack on military targets. It’s hard to know for sure what the actual outcome of that day was though since the occupation prohibits investigations. Certainly there were many civilian deaths, but there isn’t any evidence that suggests they were an intended target or that the majority were even killed by Hamas.
I'm not calling them that on my own. I'm describing them the way multiple other nations have described them - not Israel. You only need to see their actions towards their own population to see why.