Free 2 Play or Buy outright?
Free 2 Play or Buy outright?
Post by: u/Doepie308
Good day guys,
Not trying to break any rules so I will not give self promotion details. Serious question - We are developing a Fitness based VR game. A proper one with real goal setting mechanics, huge gamification, the whole 9 yards. I would like to know whether you prefer to buy a game outright or rather have a F2P with in-game purchase and/or monthly subscription.
Side note: I see most games in this genre go for about $25-$30, so we would be the same it we go that route, otherwise I was thinking F2P with a $10/month sub for additional content.
If I am breaking any rules here, I apologize, I am trying to stay within the rules by purely asking the question. For me to ensure I build something the community really wants, I need to first know what they want.
Thank you all in advance for any feedback.
Sabbathius: I'll start backwards.
Monthly fee is a big fat NOPE from me. Not happening. I seriously doubt I would do this even for MMOs any more, most modern ones are just not good enough to justify that. And I certainly wouldn't even consider it for a fitness app. That's a death kiss for a game.
One time purchase would work, but I don't think I would drop $30 outright on a fitness app, especially a largely derivative one (are we punching flying balls again?). It can work, but I think it needs a demo. A good one. If a demo is really good and sucks me in, I'd have no problem paying $20-30 for a full version.
F2P is safest, but also probably least profitable. Also I don't know if there's multiplayer, if any, but F2P pretty much guarantees a ton of screeching children, which will instantly drive away most adults. So F2P is a double-edged sword. But it's the best go get people to try, without needing a dedicated demo made.
Morveniel: One-time purchase, like Les Mills, would be ideal for me.
Doepie308: Totally get it. Thank you very much
Mister_Brevity: What annoys about f2p is, there is every incentive in the world to make things worse then charge the customer to un-crapify them. I am not cost sensitive, but I am value sensitive. $10 a month had better be a veritable fountain of new content to justify the cost - I’d much rather spend $25 on an app once, and maybe deal with some inexpensive DLC later than deal with developers trying to manipulate me into a monthly. I don’t know about everyone else, but I am tired of being nickeled and dimed. When a dev announced f2p with a monthly battle pass or similar I just skip the game entirely.
Doepie308: This seems to be most people's sentiment. Thank you for adding your feedback as well. I appreciate it all
i-liketurtles: So I had the FitXR subscription for one month, at which point personally I cancelled and bought the les Mills body combat outright. Personally they were close enough in features and I prefer that one off payment. Subscription got £10 of my money, outright got £20
astland: I would never subscribe to an app. Charge me and be done with it. I'd also want a free demo. There WAY to many apps that look nice, but as soon as you buy them, you can see they are half done and will likely never be finished.
Lo__Lox: Thank god we get another vr fitness game! /s
Doepie308: I love this comment! Coming soon
MoistestJackfruit: I'd buy outright I am firmly against subscription models. I dont mind paid optional add ons and dlc levels/songs.
If your game has unique mechanics I might be interested at f2p, but if its just another punch / chop / slice objects moving toward you in a lane like 99% of other fitness apps I'm not interested tbh
Post this question in r/vrfit too
Doepie308: This is awesome feedback, so yes, I have been living in VR for the last 3 months trying all the VR fitness apps and seeing what keeps my interest, which does not, and why they do and dont, comparing environments and mechanics etc... I fully agree with you. No interest in something with a plain depth friendly image and some objects flying at you. Also, I feel developers have not really looked outside the box in terms of how they can track movement in more ways than just the current selection of jabs and chops, plus it lacks proper workouts. It almost feels as if its just about "doing" something in a VR environment. As a 20 year Fitness veteran this is the biggest issue for me.
Thank you for the additional sub. Will check it out and post there as well. Much appreciated
Original_Pune: f2p with option to purchase the full version or outright purchase.
Personally, I don't touch anything subscription based, but I'm more than willing to buy a good product (and sequels)
Doepie308: Excellent feedback and consistent with the majority of responses. Thank you very much
OfficialLaunch: Absolutely an outright purchase, unless the subscription is like $3 a month.
If you can build a good product and make it a subscription that’s so cheap you will undercut all of the other VR fitness apps and will likely get a good subscription base.
Doepie308: hmmm. That is interesting seeing as most comments so far have been leaning towards outright purchase. May I ask what age category you fall into? Just trying to evaluate the demographic
I'm probably not your target audience, but personally I actively avoid any new subscriptions. I've got more than I want or need already. I'd much rather buy something once and just own it. For a fitness game especially I'd suggest a robust free trial to help users justify the purchase.
amtexe: I really don’t like committing to a monthly subscription for these fitness apps. I already pay for Netflix, Quest +, Amazon Prime, et cetera. As well as a real gym membership.
Unless you managed to have the subscription at a dirt cheap price (I’m talking no more than $1.99 p.m.) or provide more value than my other subscriptions (unlikely), I would much rather pay an upfront fee.
Maybe the best of both worlds is a few select F2P experiences, and an upfront price to pay for premium exercises. That way, from a business perspective, I get to try out the quality of the app with no strings attached (no “1 week free/sign up” or having to refund through the Meta store) and if I enjoy it, I can purchase it.
Doepie308: Yeah, trails are an option. I looked at that but then I felt almost like, and this is just me personally, that its to get you to play and then trick you into a sub or purchasing running because you forgot to cancel it. lol. But like I said, that is just me. I like the F2P with outright purchase for premium or additional content. Thank you for your feedback
PlaneWolf2893: Outright is my preference
Doepie308: Perfect. Short and sweet. Thank you
anarchyguru: Subscription is meh
Doepie308: Hahaha. Most descriptive and definitive response so far
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JustCallMeTere: I do not sub to any game so I would rather buy it or program.
Doepie308: Excellent, so its consistent with the sentiments of the majority of people who commented. Thank you for your contribution
sunneyjim: I'd be happy for free to play with dlc, but many of the free to play games with dlc are crap. Maybe a small price for the game, and I'd be happy to pay for any good dlc. I am not subscribing to a game.
Doepie308: Fair points. I share your feeling on the level of F2P releases.
SadLoser14: Either F2P with DLC or buy outright with DLC. Monthly subscriptions is a good way to make 90% of possible users completely turn away.
Puiucs: I think the Beat Saber model is the best one for VR right now (a mix of base game purchase + some mtx). Too few will pay a sub that is profitable for you and f2p might not bring in enough microtransaction depending on your development expenses.
You really have to do your homework on the F2P model if you want to implement it.
Doepie308: Yes... its been months of researching, planning and reviewing. Its been something I have wanted to do for years but its only with the release of Quest 3 that I felt the hardware its a place where it becomes a viable idea.
Beat Saber is awesome, but still very much a game. My mission is to get people to become physically more active but in a healthy way where an emphasis of fitness becomes a norm. The availability of proper developed workouts to get you into a healthy state physically, should be freely available to everyone, but there are costs to cover in terms of development and hosting etc. So I am trying to find the best middle ground
Nblhorn: I think there is a market for a GOOD fitness game with a one time purchase, and maybe DLCs as an additional source of income for you.
Similar model to games like Beat Saber, Puzzling Places, Synth Riders, where you can unlock additional tracks or levels for smaller one time payments.People are tired of subscriptions and I would imagine the amount of people who willingly spend 10$ a month for yet another subscription will be pretty low.
Kleptonick: I agree to this comment in full!
Doepie308: Very interesting and fair comment. Thank you very much. Would you potentially prefer a system where you pay once, work through the seasons and unlock some kind of in-app currency that will allow you to unlock more levels later without spending again, or potentially only partially spending on the next season's content?
MLG_HerobrineYT: One thing you could do is have BOTH a subscription and paid model.
Let's say it's either F2P or a small one-time price for the game. After that, DLC costs a small bit ($1-3) OR you can get a subscription which will allow you to have all the DLC while you own it.
This way, people who want everything can go with the subscription, while people who want only a few tracks can buy them individually.
leerzeichn93: I am just a user, I have noidea what brings more money, content and quality.
I am personally old-school. I love to buy my games once. There can be some good f2p games too. DLCs are also okay, if they give you a fair amount of content. I personally never bough a subscription based app for gaming and fitness and probably never will.
strangemusicfan009na: I use mine for working out kinda but not through any normal fitness apps persay but I wouldn't be signing up for another subscription there are to many already lol like another user said some dlc eventually maybe would be okay but buying the full game outright would be the ideal way
Doepie308: Perfect. And price range for a quality title that you would usually look at?
strangemusicfan009na: That really depends like whats the gameplay loop, if It really catches my interest, has the ability to be replayed without getting bored and keeping it somewhat fresh, if it's customizable, are the controls and everything optimized well enough, etc stuff like that for me for a few examples
Carnage_317: I would suggest having a free-to-play base "mode" of some sort, along with paid DLCs. This allows the casual user to enjoy your game without any monetary investment. I'm always happy to spend money on in-game purchases/DLCs if I enjoy the base game, but subscription models are an immediate turn-off for me.
Just for context of demographic, I'm in my mid 20s. Also, the idea of a fitness VR game sounds great! I've enjoyed Beat Saber so much for that reason.
Doepie308: Ah, ok... so you are suggesting something like Fortnite? You can play for free but you need to pay to be able to unlock seasonal content?
trryldne: Personally, I prefer games like that paid upright. Any substantial additions, I don't mind paying as DLC
Doepie308: Hmmm... there seems to be an early trend here - lol. And this is why I love reddit subs. You can get information directly from those who use the product or service. Thank you for your feedback
Justlose_w8: I’m also a fan of buy it one time. DLC is fine with me too as long as it’s reasonably priced and offers solid value and something different. New soundtracks would be meh, but new gameplay would be cool. This is why I don’t play Supernatural.
An example of who does this model well is Walkabout Minigolf, albeit not fitness. I buy all of their DLC because it’s fun and provides a new experience.
H4v0cH3lls1ng: Buy outright, pay for DLC later if I find it worth it/something I like.
Doepie308: Perfect! Thank you very much for your feedback
Cahir101: Honestly, I hate subscriptions. I think it's not fair to keep paying monthly for game, even if you constantly update it. I would just charge normally. Keep us updated, I'm actually looking for a good fitness vr game.
Doepie308: So I love both your comments! Especially on a good fitness VR game, right? Personally I feel the actual fitness element is missing and that its just a bunch of movements with no clear objective. So in other words a game that requires you to move...
redditfriendguy: Personally I do not look at free experiences at all. I only pay. Probably going to be biased in here though. If your game is kid themed at all you should do f2p
Doepie308: Uhm, no... its kid friendly, but not really for kids. It will be focussed on having an amazing fitness experience within a variety of beautifully crafted environments. My goal is to have people WANT to come home and do a workout not because they have to ( I mean we all have to because of what our lifestyles have become) but more because people enjoy the experience and that it has continuously achievable goals and will actually allow them to reach their fitness goals as well. Call me a dreamer but this is the dream
depaul6: One-time purchase is ideal for me. I love Les Mills BodyCombat for that reason. I don't mind spending $20-40 outright if the content is good and there is a good amount of content. I wouldn't mind paying $10 every year or so for significant add-ons (such as drastically new workouts, like if you add planks or weight training exercises that weren't included in the initial release).
As others have said, subscriptions aren't what I'd recommend as it will be hard to outdo Supernatural. Free to play with currencies end up feeling like you're being nickel and dimed.
Create a premium product, with premium content, and people will be willing to pay a premium for it.
Just a suggestion, although I'm not sure how practical it may be for VR, but having something that enforces and aides in proper form will be great to see.
Doepie308: This is the way we are going. Workouts created by fitness professionals and focus on information and education as well 💪🏻
Left-Membership8838: Please do outright buy. Subscriptions are the bain of gamers existence. DLC's are cool though, please do those.
Doepie308: Fair play. It seems that is what the community wants so that is how we will do it
djseto: One time. I was using SuperNatural for a while and I got tired of paying subscriptions. Everything is subscriptions based and like many I’m tired of being nickel and dimed for every game/app/service in my life. I’ve basically sworn off subscriptions for games. F2P is even worse for kids games. When kids meltdown because they can’t get things, have to wait X minutes to access next level (I effing hate this) etc. , it’s a nightmare for parents. Feels like im being held hostage by my kids and developers. I don’t mind paying for more content provided the game isn’t so stripped down that it’s basically “winnable” in a few days without ponying up more money.
Doepie308: So you would prefer a base game for free, payable upgrade to premium version/release and then potentially payable DLC with good content?
CasuallyCompetitive: My mom just bought a Quest and was excited about a fitness game she saw. She was very disappointed to see it required a monthly membership.
Doepie308: I do not want people to have that type of experience and I hear you. We will meet and evaluate the feedback we got from the community and create the best option
joellapit: I think free2play with a few workouts for free but then you can pay for each new game/workout you want. I hate EVERYTHING being a subscription but realize it’s sometimes necessary
Doepie308: I am starting to lean this way also. I want access to quality workout content to be free to everyone. But I do need to build a revenue stream to build it, then support it and then grow it.
Leaning towards free base game, with certain limitations, and then upgrade on base game with loads of content and then maybe DLC on a consistent release matrix. But will throw all the comments on the screen and discuss with the team.
Thank you for adding your feedback. Much appreciated
austin_apple: As someone who is beyond tired of subscriptions and constantly having to fork over more money for more features, buying outright sounds ideal. Give people access to something great, not anxiety they’ll keep having to pay more.
Doepie308: There is a clear trend towards how you feel and I hear you. Thank you very much for your feedback
szymb: Run a bunch of ads with the different payment models and see which gets more clicks. Lean Start Up methodology says in customer interviews ask about past action, what people are doing- vs what they say they want. People will say things like "I don't drink" if you ask if they drink alcohol, but if you ask when was the last time you had alcohol they'll respond "last week at my cousin's wedding." Maybe questions like- what fitness apps do you have? What do you pay? Do you have subscriptions to any VR games? Which? Why?
Doepie308: Very valid feedback. Actually quite relevant as well. Thanks
jinjabradman: Pay once for base game. Add-ons/DLC on a sliding scale - the more you buy, the longer you play and earn loyalty 'points', the cheaper it gets.
A returning customer generates more revenue by word of mouth / social media.
Hope it goes well. If you build a great VR experience that can also (partly) be done without controllers (including sports drills/sims) you might have a winner in your hands!
Doepie308: Ooooo. I love that! Brilliant feedback. A cost reducing DLC purchase mechanic.. FML... now to figure out how we will dev that :/
We are doing R&D on controller less actions. It has a few issues specifically if this speed up or the movement is very dynamic. We might not launch with controllerless actions but it is something we are exploring
JediGRONDmaster: For the user, a one time purchase (with potential one time purchase dlc/ add ons). I don’t know what would make you more money though, but I imagine most people (including myself) wouldn’t buy a subscription.
Doepie308: Fair comment. Thank you for adding your feedback. Appreciating the active community
nurpleclamps: I can't stand all these new fitness subscriptions. Everything that has to do with fitness has a subscription now. I avoid those like the plague.
Doepie308: Well, I would not want to fall into any category that has the plague associated to it, so I will best try to avoid that scenario. Thank you very much for your feedback :)
mandelmanden: If you are F2P, you really should look in to how to monetise properly instead of having everything be paywalled or priced grossly high. If you are free, your product should be completely usable and not just a shell where you're unable to do much without paying. Constant nagging about paying more is also terrible.
If your game is f2p and has monetisation, your game should make me WANT to pay for stuff in it, not have payments be mandatory.
I would personally prefer a proper product that I pay for and then can expand upon with DLC if it's good and properly developed.
Doepie308: We are putting a decent budget aside for this... probably more than the most you see in the store, so the quality will be there.
On subscription the team was more looking at offering a sub for additional cosmetic content while there is a fee for getting access to a season which will allow you to unlock a host of additional items through the completion of workouts.
I can see why they want to do it that way but it is great to get community feedback as to what you really want so I can direct them to how we can meet the needs of both the team and the community
General-Height-7027: A little bit unrelated, as its just my personal taste.
I feel that the best fitness apps in VR right now are not fitness apps.To me the best ones are Pistol Whip, Beat Saber and Thrill of the fight, those are the ones that make me go back to have some fun. The actual fitness apps I feel are boring, dont bring in me the fun or competitive side, so I would rather actually exercise at home/gym than put the VR headset for it.
Doepie308: You are 100% the person we are developing for! I feel just like you do. The only one that really caught my attention and retained me was the Les Mills Body Combat. Some others I started and within like 5mins went "WTF" and quit.
So, question, with a workout focussed approach its still unclear how we can elevate a movement element into it, but we are looking at the environment, the immersiveness, the music, the rewards, the information and the education. If we get these right, would you be interested in it despite not actually "running and jumping" around in different environments?
infinitychaosx: To be honest, a program that has a moderate one-time purchase but advertises that it has additional features unlockable with use sounds uniquely motivating to me. Like, if I bought into the atmosphere and story of the gamification, I definitely have experience playing games where I'll grind out some in-game currency rather than spend "real" money and unlock things that way (Gold in MTG Arena instead of Gems). It would feel rewarding to know I'm earning gold in a game I'm interested in just by showing up and working out regularly. Sounds interesting and promising!
Doepie308: Now see? This is what I thought most people would prefer. Pay once and earn your way to purchasing the next season with your rewards... The community have provided so much quality feedback that it will have to be properly evaluated before I make a final call
Bigoldthrowaway86: I probably wouldn’t give your game a look if it was subscription based. I want to pay for content once and then own it (as best you can on a purely digital system)
The caveat being is that I would be happy to pay for DLC if it were a game I liked.
Walkabout Mini golf for example seem to release a new course every month or so and I do not see myself stopping buying these anytime soon. So it feels almost like a subscription for myself and many others but just in the form of regular, high quality, affordable DLC that you then own.
Doepie308: Makes total sense. It's the second time Walkabout Mini Golf has been mentioned. Will have to give it a go and see what they do that keeps you happy and engaged with it
NighthunterDK: Probably doing a similar thing to Beatsaber wouldn't be too bad, depending on what applications you'd call "premium"
Doepie308: I see what you did there.. lol. I have to agree, game quality has to be improved instead of just adding sub par games or apps to the store to make it seem fuller.
Thinklikedanny: I would gladly offer my insight, as I am very active when it comes to fitness apps in VR
I have a subscription to a fitness app that I love and would probably be adverse to adding on. With that said, I always do the free trials with anything new that comes along to see if it's better than what I'm currently using.
I definitely don't mind paying a one tome cost for something of value. There's no problem there. If you can offer a couple of free sessions or classes within the app, kind of like Les Mills body combat, which is an amazing app. Try that.
I'll tell you what I don't like... free to play than DLC. I rarely buy the add-ons and end up deleting the app after like two weeks or not playing at all consistently because I know that there's will be eventual limitations, The only way this is acceptable for me is if you really bring in the value the only app that I've ever done this for is walkabout mini golf. They got me to pay for the app, then got me to pay for a ton of DLC good for them but it's one of the best VR games out there and it's social, so not sure if yours has a multiplayer functionality, but that also adds to the value of being willing to pay for DLC For exclusive classes and worlds.
Either way, keep us posted cause I'm super excited to try your app and thanks for contributing to the fitness app list because they are 40% of why I use my headset, supplementary workouts
Doepie308: Thank you so much for the detailed feedback.
I have done Les Mills Body combat and to be fair to them, its the only one where I actually felt like I am doing a workout. But that is where Les Mills shines, its what they have been doing for years, so no surprise there. Not done the golfing one, might give it a go, though I hope I will fare better than in real life because the last time I played a round was in 2012 before leaving for Dubai.
On the DLC part, what if the original game had a ton of content, and the DLC provided the same but different theme, new music and additional workouts? And yes, we will have multiplayer. I am a 20 year fitness veteran so there is no chance of not having the option to workout with someone. lol
We are also doing some R&D on the homespace... Dont want to give away too much, except it wont just be a flat menu with options... ;)
ratsareniceanimals: Make it good, I'll buy outright.
Doepie308: Oh we will... with the budget the team received, they better. :)
slmiami: I much prefer paid outright. However, as having formally been in the software business I understand how a subscription model leads to a healthy revenue stream and allows for continuous development and improvement of a product. My favorite fitness app is Les Mills; they have done a great job with the base product and continue to release new workouts and features which is amazing! I also find the recent lower subscription pricing for Supernatural to be worthwhile and it offers me a ton of variety with a constant stream of new workouts and great music. So the subscription model with great value can work for me too.
Doepie308: Supernatural is the one game I have not been able to properly check out. Not available in our region for some reason. I am in Dubai. But yes, granted Les Mills is my pick as best of what is available
slmiami: Supernatural is a big player so I suggest you watch some YouTube videos to get an understanding of it. It is a high quality app with a constant release of new workouts and licensed music from familiar artists.
poinifie: I'd say a sub model would probably net you more money.
Doepie308: Fair assumption but which would you prefer if our revenue stream were not part of the equation?
poinifie: F2p with a paid option to buy the full game or "modules"
Flubert_Harnsworth: As a consumer I would absolutely prefer to pay upfront.
The amount of subscription services out there drives me insane. There are a lot of apps out there that I would love to get but I refuse to because of their subscription model.
And if you do go the purchase route let me know what your app is I just got my quest this week and I’m looking for a good fitness app.
Oh and as someone has said you can sell additional content as one time purchases for additional income and to support maintenance and improvements.
Doepie308: Thank you for your feedback. And enjoy your new Quest. As someone who has tried them all (well almost all) if you are looking for a fitness app instead of a game with some references to fitness or being active, get Les Mills Body Combat.
I wont list the ones to avoid as I dont like doing that but I will say that Quest is good on refunding for apps you buy and try and go ,"Nah, not for me"
Have a great evening
Flubert_Harnsworth: Thanks for the recommendation and good to know about the refund policy.
Good luck with your project.
DrunkenGerbils: User feedback will almost always be that people prefer to buy once. The reality of the game industry is that it’s hard to make money this way though. I would imagine this is even more true for VR games since $30 is on the higher end of game prices and Meta takes their cut out of that as well if you sell through their store. Free to play is probably the smarter business decision honestly.
Doepie308: Yes, we looked at this. So any payment into the app will have to go through the Quest payment platform. They will remove the VAT of the appropriate country and then take 30% and 6 weeks later you can withdraw the amount inclusive of the VAT which you then declare in financial year end. So there is no real way to skip this 30%. Even if you use tokens of some sort, it still needs to be purchased initially and that purchase, regardless of what it is for, will be eligible for a 30% commission.
Kimpak: For me personally I prefer to buy a game outright. But, especially with VR, having a demo goes a long way in my decision to buy said game.