Jan 6 Capitol Rioter Tells MSNBC She Rejected Trump’s Pardon Because ‘It Was Not a Peaceful Protest, It Was An Insurrection’
Jan 6 Capitol Rioter Tells MSNBC She Rejected Trump’s Pardon Because ‘It Was Not a Peaceful Protest, It Was An Insurrection’
A woman convicted over her part in the Jan. 6 Capitol riot said she rejected Trump's pardon because it would be a "slap in the face to Capitol police officers."
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12 steppers really do have a religious response to things. I guess that's one of the few ways to fundamentally change your outlook on the world. Be nice if it wasn't an actual religious program though. And that was the key for both that rejected the pardons: they were 12 steppers.
Unfortunately, it was formed from a prayer group, and as much as some of my fellow atheists have told me that you can be an atheist and a 12-stepper (and maybe they can deal with the cognitive dissonance), there is just no legitimately non-religious interpretation of step 11. The whole "anything can be your higher power" concept I've been told by those atheists simply cannot conform to step 11:
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
You substitute "God" with pretty much anything non-deistic and that sentence simply does not rationally work.
I've always suspected that the biggest reason 12-step programs like AA do work for some people is that it's a form of group therapy.
You can substitute for the universe, the program and people in it, or nature and I'd say it still works. Just how you frame prayer or meditation. One of the definitions of prayer is a solemn request. The purpose of having "God" in the 12 steps is to have a belief in something "greater" than yourself. To me the group of alcoholics who got me sober is something "greater" than myself because I truly couldn't do it alone. The prayer and meditation can just be used almost as a manifesting of intention. If I pray that I be more tolerant patient and kind to those around me, than that's more likely to be on my mind whether I'm intentionally sending that prayer to a deity, the universe, nature, or the idea of the group as a whole. I say this as a 12 stepper myself that is non religious. That being said a lot of people use God or a deity as a higher power, but just saying it's certainly not a requirement.
No. You can't. Because those make no sense when you rewrite it.
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with the universe as we understood it, praying only for knowledge of its will for us and the power to carry that out.
The universe only has a will if you're not an atheist.
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with the program and people in it as we understood them, praying only for knowledge of their will for us and the power to carry that out.
This only makes sense if you think praying to a group will make them force you to do something. Which is nonsense.
¯_(ツ)_/¯ Hey, I guess I'm wrong, but it's been working for me when nothing else has.
If it works for you, great. As I said a while ago.
If you want to detach step 11 from it's Christian roots, you cannot just substitute "God" in its wording. That yields nonsense, as you are stating correctly.
The aim of Step 11 is "knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out." In non–religious terms I would call this aim "committment".
The means of Step 11 to achieve commitment is spirituality, spirituality being a set of basic convictions that provides meaning, purpose and a sense of belonging.
A "neutral" Meta—Step 11 might be worded something like:
"We consciously develop a healthy spiritual basis for our live, gaining motivation and comittment through it."
As any religion, philosophy, ideology or other system of basic convictions can provide this spiritual basis for an individual, the formulation of a more concrete and helpful Step 11 will differ between e.g. communists, buddhists, naturists and epicureans.
You're basically saying the 12 steps only work for atheists if they aren't the actual 12 steps. You do realize that, right?
Depends on your definition of "actual".
I totally agree that the original 12 steps cannot work for anyone not believing in an Abrahamitic god.
I'd say that you need the actual steps for other people, i.e. the steps the AA are really taking, not the steps they claim to take.
From a quick ddg -
AA Version: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
Practical Version: We started meditating.
Throughout this process, you’ll discover – if you haven’t already – that none of these steps exists in a vacuum. They all impact each other and are impacted by the others. This is particularly true for step eleven. The ultimate goal of this step is to engage regularly in the practice of mindfulness, which has been demonstrated time and again to benefit multiple areas of one’s mental health. Being mindful means being consciously aware of something (usually breath, bodily sensations, or thoughts) without judgment or resistance. The best way to practice this is through meditation, but it can be practiced throughout the day as well. I recommend utilizing both for optimal results.
Source: https://aaagnostica.org/2020/03/29/staying-sober-without-god-practical-step-eleven/
You don't have to substitute "God" directly in the steps to make them work for you. There are plenty of ways to use the ideas of the program without being limited by its theistic roots.
Of course AA works because it serves as group therapy. That should be fairly obvious to anyone who's ever heard of the concept. But the most important step in any therapeutic approach is acknowledging hard truths. That is the most important part of AA, as well.
Half the steps are devoted to honestly acknowledging our flaws and mistakes, owning them, addressing them, and making amends wherever possible. That is what these pardon refusers did here, and the world would be a better place if more people had their courage.
If you are an atheist, Step 11 makes no sense if you don't substitute "God" and it also makes no sense if you do.
So if you want to acknowledge a hard truth, acknowledge that is an issue.
Step 11 makes sense if you understand that it is about meditation and mindfulness.
An athiest and a thiest can benefit from the exact same cognitive and emotional processes and walk away with a completely different understanding of why it works.
An athiest can practice mindfulness, self-awareness, and meditation, with or without external guidance, and walk away feeling better and more capable of managing their mental and emotional labors. They often do so with the belief that meditation helps clear their mind, center their existence, or rebalances their neurochemistry.
A thiest can practice mindfulness, self-awareness, and meditation, with or without external guidance, and walk away feeling better and more capable of managing their mental and emotional labors. They often do so with the belief that meditation helps align their thoughts with God's, centers their existence, or rebalances the burdens on their immortal soul.
Both an athiest and a thiest can use repetitive mantras, sensory cues (music, incense, etc), instructors, calls-and-responses, group and individual sessions, etc.
Humans often reinvent the wheel a thousand times over and call it something new. The lines are hazy between prayer and meditation, between sermon and self-affirmation, between faith and zen.
With advanced neuroscience and psychology, we can rediscover things that were pretty obvious in hindsight: humans feel better when they surround themselves with a supportive social structure where they feel safe. These support structures are easily built around displays of community cohesion - where everyone knows the same lines, the same songs, the same cues to sit up, sit down, bow your head, kneel forward. The same cues to slide to the left, slide to the right, criss cross, clap your hands. Humans like to move as one, and speak as one, because when they do, they feel as one. They feel better when they feel connected. And they often feel better when they meditate and clear their mind, allowing a private or shared experience to take their thoughts away.
Now, in the modern day, you can take those ideas and run away with it. You can build communities that feel safe because they are safe, not because they feel safe from an artifically constructed common ground. You can play music and go to therapy. You can speak to a doctor and spend time with friends. You can find people with which you can sit in a circle and talk openly about your problems. It often helps if you find people who share those same problems.
Don't do the easy thing, and let athiesm be the thing that divides you from your fellow humans. Do the hard thing, and try to find the things that connect you. You're more alike than you think.
Yes, as I have said to others, I understand that if you totally rewrite Step 11 it can reply to atheists.
But to an atheist, the lines are in no way hazy between prayer and meditation.
But to an atheist, the lines are in no way hazy between prayer and meditation.
This is not a true statement. But if you make a simple change, it becomes true.
But to me, the lines are in no way hazy between prayer and meditation.
Don't assume you speak for everyone. You don't.
Feel free to explore the countless - countless - examples of mindfulness and meditation scattered throughout almost every spiritual and religious practice from western natives to eastern cultures to polytheistic pantheons to - yes- Abrahamic religions.
Bow your head, make some noise. Raise your head, make some noise. Wash your hands. Eat this meal, share it with your neighbor. Speak your gratitude for the food. Speak your gratitude for your life, for your health, for your family. Speak your gratitude for your neighbor. Wish them peace and good fortune. Sing this song. Smell this incense. Listen to this music.
Stand, and think about what you want. Speak these desires to yourself, to your leader, to the universe. Sit, and listen to the sound of nothing. Kneel, and think about what you need. Speak these needs out loud. Share them with your neighbors. Hear their needs. Bear your burdens together.
Too many people think religion is nothing more than a plague. In truth it is nothing more than a tool. Yes, one that was and is often used for great evil. But still just a tool.
Modern spiritualism, neurology, philosophy, psychology - they all point toward the conclusion that religion in all its forms served a number of useful purposes for the development of the human community and the maintenance of the human psyche. It's not necessary, nor is it always good. In fact in the modern day it's often bad.
But that doesn't change the fact that it was probably an inevitable part of apes climbing down from the trees, and it's not hard to imagine why people still find a use for it.
Yes, yet again, I understand that if you rewrite things, they change.
But you don't see how it's easy to rewrite something without losing its original purpose and value? How the step can serve the exact same psychological niche for an athiest as it does for a thiest, without actually changing the cognitive and emotional processes they need to undergo for sobriety or self-improvement?
Sure sounds like it is losing its original purpose to me- to bring people closer to the Christian god, since the 12 steps were formed from a Christian prayer group.
I am describing its original purpose in the sense of prayer's original purpose in psychology and sociology.
One can learn lessons from religious practices without becoming religious in the process.
Besides prayer in general, take another look at the step:
... improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
Do you know what that is? Look at it as an athiest, and imagine what purpose that step serves.
Seeking to understood God and his will? That's not - as many would put it - a human trying to communicate with a Sky Dad.
That's a human trying to understand his own Coherent Extrapolated Volition: "our wish if we knew more, thought faster, were more the people we wished we were, had grown up farther together; where the extrapolation converges rather than diverges, where our wishes cohere rather than interfere; extrapolated as we wish that extrapolated, interpreted as we wish that interpreted"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_artificial_intelligence
When a human makes a gesture and a sound on cue, they're usually engaging in in-group signalling. But when a human prays and meditates on finding God's Will for them, they are trying to imagine their own desires and needs from the standpoint of a superior being. One with more information, a greater mind, a greater moral compass. They are trying to make themselves better by imagining the ways they could be better.
Athiests do this too, they just call it cognitive behavioral therapy and moral philosophy.
It's simpler than all that. Satanists would say God is just You, or some version of yourself that is all the things you wish you could be. The fact that you are there praying means you have a good idea of what needs to change, and are searching for the strength within yourself.
As I said, that makes it irrational. People like you say that, but when it actually comes to rewriting it, it makes no sense at all:
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve my conscious contact with me as I understand myself, praying only for knowledge of my will for me and the power to carry that out.
Dunno what you're on about, makes complete sense to me. Just requires some mental flexibility.
Really? You pray to yourself? You don't have conscious contact with yourself?
It takes conscious effort to be in touch with your deeper thoughts and emotions, so in a sense yes. Not everything that is known to the self is known to the conscious mind. Didn't think that would be controversial.
"In a sense." i.e. you have to make some really convoluted interpretations to make it work.
It's fine that you don't understand. I know plenty of non-religious people who were able to find their own meaning in those words
Yes, I realize non-religious people can accept things that aren't rational.
I think the key here, and I'm speaking from the POV of a 12-stepper, is the idea of introspection.
Literally, all I learned from 12 step was to look at myself deeply, intensely, and with honesty; learn to forgive myself for the shitty things I've done; learn to forgive others for the shitty things they've done to me, while taking responsibility for my part in whatever that may have been; and to get into the habit of practicing those things daily.
The part I think you're missing with the quote above that you seem to be taking it literally, when in the quote itself implies that it and the idea of God in general, is to be interpreted by the reader however they see fit.
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
I also think that the "sought through prayer and meditation" does not necessarily imply that one must do both, as it is speaking in the first person plural. Meaning, some people may pray without "meditating", while others like myself may choose to meditate without "praying" and you can still say of the group "We prayed and meditated" without contradicting oneself. An "and/or" probably would've worked best there, but whatever.
Now, as to whether I think AA and NA are culty? Absolutely, and it's a big reason why I stopped attending.
"And" doesn't just imply both, that's exactly what "and" means. It doesn't mean either/or, it means both. I have no idea why you're suggesting otherwise.
A ham and cheese sandwich isn't ham or cheese, it's both.
A husband and wife is always two people.
A horse and rider is not either a horse or a person riding a horse.You must know this.
A ham and cheese sandwich isn’t ham or cheese, it’s both.
I agree.
When it's ham and cheese sandwiches, I personally have to ask whether the speaker means there are ham sandwiches and cheese sandwiches, or just sandwiches with ham and cheese.
ETA:
A husband and wife is always two people.
Yes, but when you say "we were husbands and wives" does this imply one person is both?
I cannot imagine a scenario where someone says "I have ham and cheese sandwiches" and they mean two different types of sandwiches.
And I also do not believe that you are so stupid that you would think that was what they meant, so I have no idea why you're pretending to be. But if it is true, congratulations on being one of the most obnoxious people on the planet.
Please see my edit on the comment you're replying to for a better example. I just needed a second to think about what I wanted to say.
Also, I'm autistic. So yeah, I'm probably pretty obnoxious, but at least I'm not out here just insulting people because they know from experience that language can have more than one interpretation.
edit: spelling
It isn't by necessity a religious program, though I freely acknowledge its theistic roots, and the fact that many are religious and do rely on deity as higher power.
But the reason these people were capable of this bravery is stated in the article and is specifically not their piety - it's their honesty.
"Step 4: Make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves"
"Step 10: Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it."
The most important lesson to be learned in AA has nothing to do with God and everything to do with addressing falsehoods - the lies people tell themselves and others to justify their behavior and to excuse their actions.
Through time, habit, and conscious effort and will, these people have primed their minds to be willing to accept a fundamentally difficult truth - that what we think and what we feel can be false. That the things we tell ourselves, the things we tell others, and the things we do can all be wrong.
We all have a responsibility to face those truths with courage and transparency. We have a responsibility to own our flaws and mistakes and make amends where possible. That is the guiding truth of AA. It all started with God, but it ends with the individual, and how they face those truths.
I guess I can't separate it from a religious program because fundamentally the ethics of it are theistic and not humanistic. They're handed down morals that come from a higher moral power. When you get into esoteric ethical debates with Christian apologists, and they describe atheists as being incapable of being moral, that's what they mean. They believe morals must come from something greater than ourselves and cannot come from a human source.
To put it another way, AA is remarkably similar to Aristotle's virtue ethics which was used by Aquinas to describe the origins of morality. Similar to AA's higher power, Aristotle derived the moral authority for virtue ethics from the "prime mover." Same concept, in essence.
As much as theists would claim that their morals were handed down from divinity, ultimately an athiest would understand those morals to be originally handed down from humans, and therefore humanistic.
Doesn't mean they're good morals of course, especially when corrupted by motives of power, but bad morals can be handed down by secular sources as well. The point being that theistic origins do not necessarily mean the morals themselves are flawed.
In any case, fundamentally the ethics of AA's 12 steps are technically theistic in origin and nomenclature but humanistic in nature, in that they appear to really dig down into the psychology of humans in a way that deviates significantly from their christian roots.
According to Mercadante, however, the AA concept of powerlessness over alcohol departs significantly from Oxford Group belief. In AA, the bondage of an addictive disease cannot be cured, and the Oxford Group stressed the possibility of complete victory over sin.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Alcoholics_Anonymous
The original christian prayer group believed that through God, addiction could be cured. AA has maintained from the beginning that addiction cannot be cured - a recovering alcoholic is and always will be a recovering alcoholic. Faith in God alone will not deliver salvation because addiction is not sin, it is illness, and should be treated by more than just prayer.
Honestly out of all 12 steps it's the first step that actually hits the hardest.
"We admitted we were powerless over alchohol (although you could substitute alcohol for anything really)—that our lives had become unmanageable."
As my shrink used to say "the hardest part of overcoming a problem or mistake is admitting you have a problem/made a mistake."