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Speaking of the headline, politicians when encouraged to attempt peace through negotiation rather than insisting on decisive victory being the only way
can't tell if this is some genuine post, or pro-russia shilling for peace negotiationing between Ukraine and Russia
Can't you shill for peace and be pro Ukraine?
No, because you cannot make a peace contract with a liar and thief, he will break it as soon as it fits him
He has zero regard for civilised relations between countries. Suing for peace he sees as weakness, violence as strength. A person who thinks this way can never be convinced to leave others alone. The only way is a defeat so thorough they are unable to retaliate in decades even if they try their hardest. Or death. Preferably death.
I didn't say they should ask nicely for a peace treaty.
That is true but that does not answer the question. My opinion is that if you are pro peace you are automatically pro Russia, pro Ukraine or ideally both (I'm talking about the people and culture in it and not their leaders).
Again, if peace means another war as soon as putler has recovered - versus defeating the asshole as hard as possible - then it is advantageous to putler. So, arguing for peace at the moment, is arguing for the attackers advantage.
Of course there will be peace. Once putler is defeated or preferably dead.
Oh, Putin + Hitler = Putler. Took me a moment.
It's okay to be scared. It's okay to want the war to stop because you're scared. It's okay to want peace, but
arguing for peace at the moment, is arguing for the attackers advantage.
hits the nail on the head. Putin pulled the war Genie out of it's bottle and it won't go back in until his regime is defeated. It's okay to want peace and to fight for it, but to argue they need to negotiate now is either completely tone deaf or outright advocacy for Putin's regime.
I am not arguing for Putin, I am arguing for the people in this war.
But yes I see your point. Maybe NATO could threaten with nuclear war if Russia ever attacks anything again, but that won't change the problem.
I think the only way to stop Putin is with a revolution inside of Russia.
Russia promised that they would be a democratic country but since Putin's "democratic" elections that promise was broken.
In my country we have a law inside the core of our basic lawbook that enables every institution and every human being living in the country to stop a dictatorship to arise by force because it is treated as self defense.
Schland detektiert
Yes
It depends on the terms of that peace. If Russia wants peace, they can withdraw to their 1997 treaty borders. They can not be allowed to hold Ukraine land gained through conquest.
You can, but those aren't criticising the West and Ukraine, but rather russia.
Huh? Not sure what you're saying.
Considering the Ukrainian position is basically "any loss of territory is unacceptable", there is little room for both peace negotiation AND support for Ukraine simultaneously. Tough position.
I don't see it as tough. Wishing for peace doesn't mean I want Ukraine to surrender.
Fair enough. I guess I've spent too much time seeing disingenuous calls for "peace" on the internet, mostly by pro-russia shills, with the intent of painting the western support of Ukraine as evil warmongering or something.
We do wish for peace ultimately, but there's a whole lot of violence to happen if it is going to be on Ukrainian terms, because russia does not look like it wants to back down.
You word it like Ukraine is somehow responsible for the violence because she won’t back down.
This entire clusterfuck is Putin’s fault. Not wanting to give up territory is completely understandable.
I think you're putting words in my mouth, never did I imply or think that Ukraine is responsible for what is happening, or that Ukraine is not right in wanting all their territory back. However, it is factual that if Ukraine wants to secure its territory, which is entirely justified, it will not be by means that are describable as "peace" or "peaceful", because russia is not backing down like complete idiots(a common theme).
Is what I am saying false?
I agree with the other guy, you're wording it in a way that is attributing all the agency to Ukraine and none to Russia. It probably would lead to much more needless death in the long run, because it sets the stage for additional aggression. Which of course would be staged from a much more consolidated position that would be much harder to roll back than if Ukraine just rolls it back now.
Thank you for finding a way to word it better than I did, that’s exactly what I meant.
kinda depends on whether or not you want Ukraine to give up crimea.
I want Ukraine to beat back Russia and the war to end. That's a wish for peace.
that's basically the decisive victory from the comment I originally replied to though.
Yeah, I'm on the side of peace aka no more people being needlessly killed first, Ukraine second and war criminal Putin not at all.
As the red starred soldiers give up to the blue banded I've got an opinion on that topic.
pro-russia shilling for peace
not sure why you are facepalming, I live in a neighboring country to Ukraine and a lot of people here according to polls think that Ukraine should just give up Crimea and accept peace.
From the rest of the world's point of view, Ukraine had already accepted it's loss in 2014.
It was only when Russia went "well we'll have the rest of the country as well then!" that all the other countries decided to help out. Because Europe's been here before. Nobody stops after just one country. It's like Jaffa Cakes. You just keep going until there's none left.
what does that have to do with anything?
It means that giving up Crimea doesn't end in peace, it's just pushing the problem to the next time Russia decides to invade again.
"Guys, give up and get yourselves colonized, we're mildly inconvenienced!"
Peace in our time!
not sure why you are facepalming, I live in a neighboring country to Ukraine and a lot of people here according to polls think that Ukraine should just give up Crimea and accept peace.
That's the frying pan saying "at least I'm not as bad as the fire!"
that makes no sense what you just wrote
I genuinely want peace through negotiation and equally genuinely believe that the war is the result of the imperialist ambitions and heinous actions of the despicable war criminal Putin. Clear enough for you?
yeah but as it stands the "peace treaty" involves Ukraine giving up the occupied territories. SO you can't really be pro Ukraine and pro peace treaty at the same time.
Of course I can. This isn't some dumbed down video game on rails where you get one treaty from however many years ago and that's it.
There's happened a shitload since then, most of it to detriment of the ones that demanded territorial concessions at the start of the war.
If anything, you can't be pro the regular people of Ukraine who are needlessly being shelled if you're not pro negotiation of a better peace treaty.
Letting Russia consolidate its territorial gains, build bases and continue the war in a few years is a terrible idea. They are more than welcome to turn their tanks around and leave Ukraine.
Русскии военыи корабл, иди на хуй.
Ooh, big tough guy brave enough to be against peace and diplomacy in badly translated Ukrainian!
Just for the record, I am not, nor have I ever been a "Russian warship" nor have I ever been on the side of the war criminal Putin.
"You're either with us and declare our warlike methods perfect or you're with the enemy" was bullshit when Dubya said a simplified version of it in the early 2000s and it's not any more true now.
The original sentence was in Russian, not Ukrainian.
How attacked you felt by that quote says a lot.
The only ones who get to decide Ukraine's future are the Ukrainians. We rich cunts here in the West with our comfortable lives should shut the fuck up.
"Oh, the Ukrainians wanted to be closer to the more prosperous and democratic West instead of being with us perpetually mopey, subservient-to-dictators Russians?! How dare the Ukrainians decide for their own sovereignty! We should punish and genocide them for exercising their own autonomy! Us Russians know what is better for our little brothers! We're totally not insecure gits who long for the good old days of having a powerful empire! The only ones to blame for Russia's loss of prestige and embarrassing military losses are the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians put this upon themselves!
--totally not a bot larping as W*sterner
Wtf
The original sentence was in Russian, not Ukrainian.
The translator detected it as Ukrainian, not my fault I don't speak either language, contrary to your childish insinuations 🤷
How attacked you felt by that quote says a lot.
I agree that it said a lot that I just calmy corrected you while lightly mocking your tough guy act rather than let your nonsense bother me.
The only ones who get to decide Ukraine's future are the Ukrainians. We rich cunts here in the West with our comfortable lives should shut the fuck up.
You know that's exactly what pro-Russian Ukrainians who are ACTUALLY cheering for Putin's war say, right?
Neither you, nor the victims of war nor the perpetrators of war get to decide what I think about war. That's not how ideology works.
I'm not gonna do a quote war on a nice Saturday afternoon. I'll just say this: fuck putin and fuck his dumb fucking war. If you disagree with that I hope you'll come to your senses on your own, since I can't force you
fuck putin and fuck his dumb fucking war.
Of course. That's what I've been saying all along.