Hostage users vs. Hostage killers, what a wonderful scenario the Middle East has gotten itself into this time.
Hostage users vs. Hostage killers, what a wonderful scenario the Middle East has gotten itself into this time.
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What are you talking about? The beepers and radios were bought by Hezbollah, and went to Hezbollah members. They were surgical strikes.
Meanwhile, Lebanon is still firing rockets at Israel. The only reason that not more Israeli civilians are dead is because of the Iron Dome
What are you talking about? The beepers and radios were bought by Hezbollah, and went to Hezbollah members. They were surgical strikes.
This may be news to you, but Israel has been executing a flurry of airstrikes and artillery shelling on Lebanon since.
Surgical my ass. Blowing explosives you planted on people way out of sight AND without any situational awareness is anything but precise
More surgical than some unguided rocket over a civilian area
I'd say its about the same. Both have no idea where it will explode. The only thing Israels solution has going for it is the significantly less powerful explosive
I mean it was certainly precise as in each device was carried by their respective owner and therefore intended target.
Blowing it up while the guy was standing in line in a grocery store shows how much civilian casualties have been considered though.
I mean it was certainly precise as in each device was carried by their respective owner and therefore intended target.
There was no way to know that for Israel though, they just assumed
Certainly, but I assume they only did care so much.
Yeah, we can agree on that
If they were surgical then why did innocent civilians and children get hurt? What kind of surgeons are you used to and what on earth is their level of success?
Meanwhile, Lebanon is still firing rockets at Israel. The only reason that not more Israeli civilians are dead is because of the Iron Dome
Why is Israel getting attacked by Hezbollah? (It's not Lebanon attacking Israel.)
I'd say it was closer to a surgeon than to most recent Isreali actions, but you're right, "surgical" is always a propaganda term in military contexts. There is no clean war, only relatively less dirty.
Saying it's close to a surgeon compared to the rest of Israel's actions is like saying a sawed-off shotgun is slightly more accurate because you added a tiny barrel to decrease it's spread. It's common knowledge this was an act of terror that violated international law and was intended to escalate the conflict to help keep Bibi and his cronies in power while also grabbing more land from Palestine and Lebanon. Calling it "surgical" is not just propaganda. It's an outright lie and intended to misdirect from what's actually happening.
It’s common knowledge this was an act of terror
I really don't think so. That's just some people's opinion. Hell, even "act of terror" is poorly-defined, as used.
and was intended to escalate the conflict to help keep Bibi and his cronies in power
That's valid, though. There's nothing just about the war, valid method in this one instance or no.
It really is an act of terror. This isn't subjective. If you attack a population and spread terror among them than it's an act of terror.
“It is also a war crime to commit violence intended to spread terror among civilians, including to intimidate or deter them from supporting an adversary,” the experts warned. “A climate of fear now pervades everyday life in Lebanon,” they said.
So when the police arrest someone for stealing in order to deter other potential thieves, that's an act of terror? I kinda thought you might go there, but it's a uselessly vague dictionary definition. In practice it's even more political than "surgical strike".
Collective punishment is a war crime, but this was directed at personnel of a military adversary, not Lebanese people in general. These UN experts seem to think it was indiscriminate, and they're way more qualified than me, but at the same time an airstrike on a specifically military target is generally considered okay, and has way higher potential for collateral damage.
Humanitarian law additionally prohibits the use of booby-traps disguised as apparently harmless portable objects where specifically designed and constructed with explosives
This one's new to me. Yep, that fits to a tee. Never mind, it was illegal.
So when the police arrest someone for stealing in order to deter other potential thieves, that’s an act of terror?
Police arrest and imprison a thief because they are a thief and have done a crime. Deterrence is not the main intent and just a byproduct. This was an intentional escalation of an already volatile situation to promote fear in the Lebanese population and provoke a response from Hezbollah. These 2 situations are in no way related.
Collective punishment is a war crime, but this was directed at personnel of a military adversary, not Lebanese people in general.
Unless the pagers had some kind of biometrics capability capable of verifying that the person beside the pager was a Hezbollah member and no one else was around then it was not "directed at personnel of a military adversary". You don't play a shooter and say spray-and-pray is an effective strategy because over 80% of the bullets hit the target.
These UN experts seem to think it was indiscriminate, and they’re way more qualified than me
If experts are saying something then maybe you should listen?
but at the same time an airstrike on a specifically military target is generally considered okay, and has way higher potential for collateral damage.
An airstrike with guided missiles on some of the most advanced fighter jets in history has more potential for collateral damage than a bunch of improvised IED's spread throughout a population? Really?
Deterrence is not the main intent
Any number of politicians, police officers and domestic legal experts openly disagree with you. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "deter criminals" many times before.
Abstract moral punishment and rehabilitation are also in the mix, but deterrence is listed first as often as not.
You don’t play a shooter and say spray-and-pray is an effective strategy because over 80% of the bullets hit the target.
Spraying bullets vaguely towards the enemy is not unusual at all in infantry operations. Quite often they're concealed or covered, and you either want to keep them that way or kill them before they can kill you, regardless. In fact, the automatic setting on an ordinary assault rifle can't do anything else.
Also, airstrikes are not biometric, but that's the next bit.
An airstrike with guided missiles on some of the most advanced fighter jets in history has more potential for collateral damage than a bunch of improvised IED’s spread throughout a population? Really?
Yes. High-tech or not it's a big boom and you only have you're intelligence guy's best guess about who's inside of or next to the military position. It sounds like you might have fallen for some "surgical strike" type rhetoric here yourself.
Any number of politicians, police officers and domestic legal experts openly disagree with you. I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase “deter criminals” many times before.
That point is used for political theatre. How often do you see the conviction of a crime justified in the name of deterrence of future crimes in a courtroom? EDIT: Again, this example isn't related to the above situation.
Spraying bullets vaguely towards the enemy is not unusual at all in infantry operations. Quite often they’re concealed or covered, and you either want to keep them that way or kill them before they can kill you, regardless. In fact, the automatic setting on an ordinary assault rifle can’t do anything else.
The point I'm trying make here is that Israel had no actual way of verifying they were hitting Hezbollah members. They just intercepted a shipment of pagers going to Lebanon that they know Hezbollah members used and put in explosives. What happened if you're just a regular guy trying to buy one of those pagers? How did Israel know that actual Hezbollah members were in possession of pagers when they hit the button to blow them up? The short answer is they didn't know the answer to either of those questions. That's why there were innocent casualties. Hence, calling it an act of terror.
Yes. High-tech or not it’s a big boom and you only have you’re intelligence guy’s best guess about who’s inside of or next to the military position. It sounds like you might have fallen for some “surgical strike” type rhetoric here yourself.
I genuinely don't know how to explain to you that exploding a bunch of pagers with no knowledge of where they are or who has them at any given time has more potential for collateral damage than an airstrike using advanced weaponry on a military target. Just because Israel doesn't care about civilian casualties and likes to carpet bomb entire neighborhoods doesn't make your point valid.
How often do you see the conviction of a crime justified in the name of deterrence of future crimes in a courtroom?
In a courtroom, they don't justify laws at all, except maybe relative to other, more foundational laws. They just interpret them.
Theater implies it's not very much meant earnestly, by politicians and criminologists alike. And honestly I myself agree with that kind of deterrence, there should be rules that people are mortally afraid to break; anything else is a power vacuum and won't last.
hey just intercepted a shipment of pagers going to Lebanon that they know Hezbollah members used and put in explosives. What happened if you’re just a regular guy trying to buy one of those pagers?
It's actually known now that their own shell company sold directly to Hezbollah. It's not like this was a random shipment to Lebanon, there was no risk of that. The civilian casualties were a result of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I genuinely don’t know how to explain to you that exploding a bunch of pagers with no knowledge of where they are or who has them at any given time has more potential for collateral damage than an airstrike using advanced weaponry on a military target.
I genuinely thing that's empirically wrong. What you call "advanced weaponry" still uses the same explosives from WWII, but in even greater quantities. The 21st century electronics mean it will hit a specific building instead of "London", but it's still 2000 pounds of RDX or whatever.
This one’s new to me. Yep, that fits to a tee. Never mind, it was illegal.
This is not quite as cut-and-dry. The prohibition is for civilian objects. The argument can be made that Israel rigging the communication devices of Hezbollah operatives specifically is not invalid just because communication devices are dual-use objects.
But regardless. It's shitty, Israel's motives are shitty, and all most of us half a world away can do is meme to keep our sanity.
Or lose it. Whatever.
Do you know which treaty that was exactly? I also wonder if it was written at a time when opaque military supply chains and detonation by network weren't around. A walkie-talkie that blows up on use and is sold openly would indeed be indiscriminate as hell.
A link to the text that currently works, Wikipedia has some rust going on.
It's Article 6 section 1 subsection "a" that's relevant here. Interestingly, it's worded specifically about self-detonating objects, as opposed to remote controlled ones, which other parts of the text do include. Maybe there's been updates of some kind to this, though; I defer to the actual lawyers.
They have since been bombing the shit out of residential areas which is significantly less surgical...
Sure, that's definitely the only operation Israel has done recently. /s