[Discussion] Should we defederate exploding-heads.com? (Closing arguments)
[Discussion] Should we defederate exploding-heads.com? (Closing arguments)
Exploding-heads.com is another instance on Lemmy where alt-right MAGA types tend to reside. Some people on this server want us to defederate from them immediately, some people want to save defederation as a last resort. They have 104 active users (more stats below).
It seems that exploding-heads has also experienced a recent botswarm invasion. This is obviously another point in favor of defederating them, assuming you are worried about botswarms, which is currently being discussed here.
My advice to you all is please try to discuss this in a civil manner, we need not allow them to create divisive conflict inside our communities. No matter how the vote turns out, you're not going to be able to defederate from your fellow sh.itheads so be nice.
I've linked many of the previous discussions below so people who are out of the loop can get a general sense of the situation.
https://sh.itjust.works/post/216888 https://sh.itjust.works/post/225714 https://sh.itjust.works/post/281126 https://sh.itjust.works/post/410325
Lemmy.world just recently defederated them.
https://lemmy.world/post/747912
https://lemmy.world/post/577526
Although this could be considered a point in favor of defederation, it actually means even if we vote to remain federated, people have a great alternative in lemmy.world where they can still participate in our communities and simultaneously be protected from exploding-heads.
Ensuring diversity of servers is beneficial to the platform as a whole, but it is also not our responsibility to bear that burden.
TLDR, just wrap up any last points in this thread before we open the vote tomorrow. Please be civil.
EDIT: To clarify, this isn't the official vote, this is the final discussion. The vote thread will be posted tomorrow and you will only be allowed to make a single comment saying Aye or Nay.
EDIT2: Vote thread is up, this thread is now locked. Very lively discussion thread sh.itheads. Please try to be more respectful next time.
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Nay, but only slightly. like 51-49
I like challenging them, and if sh.itjust.works defederates from them, I won't be able to! :(
Just because you enjoy the conflict doesn't mean we should subject marginalized user to their vitriol.
If you want to debate them (which is futile because they always argue in bad faith) you could always do it on their instance.
By remaining federated their content shows up here and their behavior is effectively condoned by this instance. New users of this instance will see that and could end up moving elsewhere because they don't understand federation yet.
They also use benign instances to link back to theirs as a recruiting tool which can further radicalize people who may not have known about the community in the first place. Real harm is done when we give fascists an outlet under the guise of free speech.
The only way for a tolerant society to remain tolerant is to be intolerant of intolerance.
I assume you also raise these concerns with lemmy.ml allowing lemmygrad, the much larger hateful community?
The only way for a tolerant society to remain tolerant is to be intolerant of intolerance.
And as always, the rest of the quote:
I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.
How can you apply the paradox of intolerance while you deny public opinion by calling to defederate from extremists? As it stands now, EH doesn't ban dissent; I've challenged them multiple times.
Thank you for the full quote. I'd argue:
- They do advocate and permit violence.
- We aren't surpressing their utterances, but merely removing one of their loudspeakers.
According to Sir Karl Popper, strong tools should be reserved to remove intolerance, by force if necessary for it mere utterance. I'd argue defederating is not silencing their users by force. They are still free to speak their minds.
Frankly, defederating is a proportional response to their behavior.
You're misunderstanding. Karl Popper argues that if the public can debate and challenge their intolerant beliefs, the public should. Despite being shit, EH has yet to ban anyone for disagreeing with their ridiculous claims.
Defederating is removing the public's ability to challenge them.
Regardless, why don't you make these same arguments for the likes of lemmy.ml?
I believe you are misunderstanding my argument that defederating isn't the same as silencing them. People are free to challenge their beliefs, but they can do that on their instance.
I don't expect to change your mind this interpretation, so I hope that we can agree to disagree, and let others make up their minds based on what we've written.
However, I do take exception to your last point. Why do you assume I do not feel the same way about tankies? I'm relatively new to this instance (as most people are) and the arguments made against lemmy.ml were made and decided upon before I became active here. So that explains why I haven't explicitly made the same arguments against them.
However, since it has come up, I will publicly state I am vehemently against any ideology that advocates for the oppression or others (with the exception of intolerant ideologies of course) or the denialism or minimization of atrocities committed under those and in the name of those ideologies. While tankies are left-leaning, they are still fascists. Fascism isn't a right or left issue, it's an authoritarian issue.
For those that wish to put me in a box with a label, I would say I'm left-leaning centrist who also espouses capitalistic ideals with social safeguards and regulations. However, I reject the notion of labels, because I think of myself as an intellectually flexible person who is not necessarily rooting for any particular camp of ideology.
I believe you are misunderstanding my argument that defederating isn’t the same as silencing them. People are free to challenge their beliefs, but they can do that on their instance.
That means making a new account on EH, bolstering their numbers. Or making a new account on some niche instance, which then risks getting infected by EH-like content. It also means that if you get banned, your account will be banned. While on this instance, sh.it, your account itself won't be banned.
However, I do take exception to your last point. Why do you assume I do not feel the same way about tankies?
From experience, most don't.
The tankies were already defederated, so more are in support than oppose. I can get how the vocal minority can skew our perception, but I'm willing to bet more people share my view on this than not.
For what's worth, I hope you don't take this personally. I was already subbed to WorldNews and now I'm subbed to your second community, MeanwhileOnGrad.
Any suggestions you have to improve the quality of those communities?
lol, if I knew the answer to that, @[email protected] wouldn't be dead.
I assume a power user just needs to keep making posts until others start to make their own. I'll definitely be posting things to WorldNews in the future, but I probably won't to MeanwhileOnGrad because I don't have an interest in actively watching their group, but I'd like to be a passive consumer.
randomly bringing up federal decisions of an entirely different instance is pretty weird
Someone didn't read the OP thread :v
i dont see lemmy.ml mentioned anywhere
So it's specifically ml you have a problem with?
i dont understand your question
you randomly asked someone about their opinion on lemmy.ml, a completely different instance that has nothing to do with the conversation, allowing lemmygrad
i thought that pulling the conversation away from the actual topic to something unrelated like that was pretty weird
there is no double standard, sh.itjust.works users discussing federation with a shithole on a sh.itjust.works post about federation with a shithole is not suddenly hypocritical just because they havent given their opinion on every single federation by any instance on activitypub ever
youre pretending that there is a double standard for some reason, by pretending that the folks saying sh.itjust.works should defederate hold some opinion theyve never hinted at having