You're viewing a single thread.
Making a proprietary operating system is not the right decision. It's unethical to take away people's ability to control their own devices.
How does Valve prevent you from controlling your own device? Their version of Linux isn't locked down, you can fully customize it like any Linux afaik.
Their system (and the Steam client) is proprietary, which means you can't easily see what the software does or change it. If you can't control the software then you don't control the device. People deserve to have the 4 essential freedoms. This is why Windows is bad and it's the same with SteamOS.
SteamOS is only bad when you expect it to support a variety of hardware. They promised to release it as a standalone and it's still not there yet, too bad.
You are correct about Steam client though. Even if they keep the internals closed, the GUI part alone would be worth forking. I wish a chrome-less version would exist.
Steam Deck is a computer, so its users deserve to have full control over it just like their PC or smartphone.
You are correct about Steam client though. Even if they keep the internals closed, the GUI part alone would be worth forking. I wish a chrome-less version would exist.
If people can't easily modify it, then its developers have power over users. You have to trust that they will not abuse that power, but they already do - with DRM for example.
You can install whatever you want on a Steam Deck afaik, so I dont get what you are trying to say here.
That SteamOS is unethical, similar to Windows.
Then you can just install something else on it?
I get that it sucks when a device is locked, because you might need to install a different OS for a multitude of reasons, but as long as you are able to install whatever you want I dont blame the manufacturer.
You don't have to use SteamOS and you don't have to use Windows, but that doesn't change the fact that they are unethical operating systems designed to take away user's freedom. You can't easily know what it does on your device or change it. It keeps secrets from you. Steam also restricts you with DRM. So unless you are fine with Valve becoming another Microsoft, we need to criticize them for doing this.
I'm okay with valve replacing microsoft as the go-to proprietary operating system
You have to recognize that having an open source almost everything except a single program (steam) is better than what windows is doing by miles, right?
You can't win everything, steam is never going to stop being proprietary, but steam will cause open source to flourish with the caveat that it itself is not open source. The issue is not as black and white as you're making it seem.
Plus if steam wins, getting people to switch to fully open source operating systems will be a lot easier.
Then you don't care about freedom and having control over your computer. That's a shame. I think you should.
You have to recognize that having an open source almost everything except a single program (steam) is better than what windows is doing by miles, right?
But is that actually true? There is no source code for SteamOS 3. How do you know how many packages are proprietary? Even one nonfree package is unethical. People deserve to have control over their computers, I don't care if it's currently a little better than Windows.
You can’t win everything, steam is never going to stop being proprietary
This is irrelevant. We should still try to make the world better and fight the injustice. If gamers realized this 10 years ago, maybe we would have this problem solved by now.
The issue is not as black and white as you’re making it seem.
You can't have freedom when someone is actively trying to take it away from you. We have to get rid of proprietary software. If we accept the abuse from those companies, nothing will change. We've been fighting this battle for 40 years now. Those companies want to give you an illusion of freedom, so that they can pretend that they are good. They are using the work of Free Software volunteers to build a prison for you.
Plus if steam wins, getting people to switch to fully open source operating systems will be a lot easier.
No, there is no Free Software alternative to Steam and there is no reason to believe that Valve will release its source code.
You are making an assumption that Valve won't make their system even more proprietary. But why wouldn't they if their fans are ok with this? They're already abusing their power with Steam. Giving them more power will only make the abuse worse.
You have full freedom to install Windows, SteamOS, or even Temple OS on your Steam Deck if you so fancy.
That does not make SteamOS or Windows an ethical OS.
Can you explain what parts of SteamOS are not controllable in a way that makes it more restricted than Arch, which it is based on?
with DRM for example
[If the account owns the game - allow user to download and run the game] is a DRM sure... But it's kind of fair, no?
Can you explain what parts of SteamOS are not controllable in a way that makes it more restricted than Arch, which it is based on?
Valve won't release the source code and I don't use it, so it's hard for me to tell which packages are proprietary and which are not. Steam client for sure is proprietary and it comes with the OS. Arch by default is Free Software (other than proprietary blobs in the kernel) and you can audit what each program does and modify it. With SteamOS you can't do that, because Valve keeps secrets from you on your own device.
[If the account owns the game - allow user to download and run the game] is a DRM sure… But it’s kind of fair, no?
To play any game you have to install and run the proprietary Steam client and be logged in to an account. Even to play singleplayer games. Even if you bought a physical disc. There are stores that don't do this: gog.com and itch.io. They provide an optional client for convenience, but you can just download a game's installer from the website and install it on any PC any time you want. In case of Itch the client is Free Software so anyone can see what it does and modify it.
Valve won't release the source code
That doesn't mean you can't control how it works. Most people don't need sources of their Linux distros to use them as they want. It would be cool to have the source, but you wouldn't expect them to have an official maintained repo since they spend much more resources on actual hardware that needs this distro.
Steam client for sure is proprietary and it comes with the OS
Yeah it seems to also be the only thing that is proprietary in SteamOS too.
To play any game you have to install and run the proprietary Steam client and be logged in to an account.
Are you clueless or what? There are too many ways to do what you want with SteamOS. You can use offline mode, desktop mode, play pirated games in any mode, install any controller software you like. Finally, install another Linux distro on it, or Windows. But people buy Deck because of SteamOS mostly since it creates the intended (and expected) experience.
Wanna know why we aren't seeing many enthusiasts creating more handheld frontends for platforms like Deck? Yeah, not at all because the platform is locked behind DRM or other bs. But because the best experience most people expect is already available and it becomes better with updates.
That doesn’t mean you can’t control how it works. Most people don’t need sources of their Linux distros to use them as they want.
You can't easily make changes to a program without the source code or even check what it does. Most people are not programmers, so others study the code and make the necessary changes for them.
It would be cool to have the source, but you wouldn’t expect them to have an official maintained repo since they spend much more resources on actual hardware that needs this distro.
This is not an excuse. What they are doing is unethical. They put themselves in a position of power over their users. Not much different from Microsoft or Apple.
Yeah it seems to also be the only thing that is proprietary in SteamOS too.
I don't know if that's true. But the Linux kernel is proprietary as well (just like the one in Arch) - it contains binary blobs without the source code.
Are you clueless or what? There are too many ways to do what you want with SteamOS. You can use offline mode, desktop mode, play pirated games in any mode, install any controller software you like.
I was explaining to you how DRM works and why it's wrong, since apparently you have no idea. I don't know why you are listing features that any popular desktop operating system has (even Windows). SteamOS is still proprietary, which makes it unethical.
Finally, install another Linux distro on it, or Windows. But people buy Deck because of SteamOS mostly since it creates the intended (and expected) experience.
If you buy a Windows laptop, you can install any operating system on it too. That doesn't make Windows ethical.
You can't easily make changes to a program
99% users won't ever need that. For cases when they do, they can find guides, modify settings or install software that does what they want.
This is not an excuse. What they are doing is unethical.
People don't need an excuse. They play their games and that's it.
it contains binary blobs without the source code
Any distro you download can do this exact thing and you wouldn't know for a long period, unless you spend enough time to compile the whole thing yourself, compare and research.
I was explaining to you how DRM works and why it's wrong
I consider myself knowledgeable but you surely chose a wrong example to teach people about DRM. Try some denuvo or eac maybe.
If you buy a Windows laptop, you can install any operating system on it too. That doesn't make Windows ethical.
Whatever that means, users don't care about it. Compared to others, Valve provides a lot more value in most of their solutions. They are hackable just enough to satisfy most enthusiasts.
99% users won’t ever need that. For cases when they do, they can find guides, modify settings or install software that does what they want.
You could make the same excuse for Windows.
Any distro you download can do this exact thing and you wouldn’t know for a long period, unless you spend enough time to compile the whole thing yourself, compare and research.
You don't have to compile to know this. You can find the list of fully free distros here: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html . Debian removes those blobs too, but it's not on that list for other reasons.
I consider myself knowledgeable but you surely chose a wrong example to teach people about DRM. Try some denuvo or eac maybe.
That's DRM too and there are many more examples. Blu-ray also contains DRM. And so do most PC games thanks to Valve. Console games on the other hand usually don't have DRM when you buy a physical copy.
Whatever that means, users don’t care about it. Compared to others, Valve provides a lot more value in most of their solutions. They are hackable just enough to satisfy most enthusiasts.
I know that most people don't care about their freedom, privacy or security. Most people use Windows. But this doesn't stop us from trying to build a better world for ourselves and to try to convince others to care.
Just because they made steam start on boot. Doesn't mean you can't control your device...
Steam (and other parts of SteamOS) is non free software, it can do anything on your system and there is no easy way for you to change that or even know what it does. Valve developers put themselves in a position of power over you. They keep secrets from you on your own device. This in itself is unethical, but they also abuse their users with DRM. How can you say that you have control in this case?
Steam OS is easy, you can install literally any other distro. With regards to steam itself sadly we don't live in a fairytale land where everything can be FOSS, there aren't enough people motivated to work for free. Steam drm is great it makes publisher executives happy, while being extremely easy to crack.
Steam OS is easy, you can install literally any other distro.
You can say the same about Windows. You can replace it with another OS, but that doesn't make it ethical.
With regards to steam itself sadly we don’t live in a fairytale land where everything can be FOSS, there aren’t enough people motivated to work for free.
If everyone had this attitude, there would be no Free Software at all. It took 40 years of hard work to get to where we are right now. I don't understand why you think that anyone has to work for free. Free Software is about freedom, not price. Itch.io is a store that has a Free Software client (and it's optional - you don't even have to use it). Valve could do the same, but they don't want to.
Steam drm is great it makes publisher executives happy, while being extremely easy to crack.
Yes, it's great that publishers can abuse us and that you need a proprietary app on your system and be logged in to an account to play singleplayer games. Thanks Valve.
DRM is what publishers and developers want. If Valve didn't have DRM they wouldn't be anywhere near as big as they are today. The influx of developers happened when Steam released their DRM for the public.
Yes, but those aren't the companies that would have replaced Steam if they weren't successful. It would've been a company like Microsoft, EA, Ubisoft, or Blizzard who would've taken over the game distribution market. Valve is a saint compared to any of those companies. As much as we wish for everything to be DRM free it would never happen. At least not with the current market. Also, the average person doesn't care about DRM. They don't understand the implications of what makes an ethical market. They just want to install a game and hit start.
Valve is an enemy of freedom. It doesn't matter if they abuse us less than other companies. They are still an unethical company.
As much as we wish for everything to be DRM free it would never happen.
If you don't fight for it, then of course it won't happen. Also I'm pretty sure you could say this about any difficult problem: Free Software, privacy, global warming, wars. You could say that we will never solve those issues, so why bother doing anything?
Also, the average person doesn’t care about DRM. They don’t understand the implications of what makes an ethical market. They just want to install a game and hit start.
An average person doesn't mind running Windows either. But we still try to build a better world for ourselves and we try to convince others to join us.
They are not DRM free. They verify your ownership before letting you download games.
They are DRM-free. I can send you a copy of those games and you can run them on your computer. Without you having to log in anywhere or install an additional proprietary application. Without anyone verifying anything. Isn't that amazing?
By that definition Steam is DRM free too. I can download tons of my games, pack and send them to you and they'll work. My rough estimate is that about half of all games are like that. Half of the remaining games rely on Steam environment for community or multiplayer functionality.
but you still need the proprietary Steam client to download them
You do. But hey you end up with DRM free games you like so much. By the way why so you even want games? Aren't most of them unethical?
Gog offline installers are also unethical, no?
You do. But hey you end up with DRM free games you like so much.
But to get there I have to use unethical proprietary software that I hate so much.
By the way why so you even want games? Aren’t most of them unethical?
Who said I do?
Gog offline installers are also unethical, no?
Of course. This is why itch.io is better than gog.
Not other parts of steamos, just steam
Also the Linux kernel and possibly some drivers according to the FSF: https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html. But I don't know how to verify that last part.