Lemmy (and the fediverse) and GDPR: a clusterfuck waiting to happen?
Lemmy (and the fediverse) and GDPR: a clusterfuck waiting to happen?
So, I’m kinda new to this Lemmy thingy and the fediverse. I like the fediverse from a technological standpoint. However, I think that, if we gain more and more traction, Lemmy (and by extend the entire fediverse) is a GDPR clusterfuck waiting to happen. With big and expensive repercussions…
Why? Well, according to GDPR, all personal data from EU users must remain in the EU. And personal data goes really far. Even an IP-address is personal data. An e-mail address is personal data. I don’t think there is jurisprudence regarding usernames, so that might be up for discussion.
Since the entire goal of the fediverse is “transporting” all data to all servers inside the ActivityPub/fediverse world, the data of a EU member will be transported all over the place. Resulting in a giant GDPR breach. And I have no idea who will be held responsible… The people hosting an instance? The developers of Lemmy? The developers of ActivityPub?
Large corporations are getting hefty fines for GDPR breaches. And since Lemmy is growing, Lemmy might be “in the spotlights” in the upcoming years.
I don’t like GDPR, and I’m all for the technological setup of the fediverse. However, I definitely can see a “competitor” (that is currently very large but loosing ground quickly) having a clear eye out to eliminate the competition…
What do y’all thing about this?
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Since the entire goal of the fediverse is “transporting” all data to all servers inside the ActivityPub/fediverse world, the data of a EU member will be transported all over the place.
It doesn't work like that, think of your instance being a proxy to the fediverse
Is it? I read somewhere that data effectively gets "copied" to the different instances? But that might be wrong info :p
the entire content of that community is going to be copied to the feddit.de server
That's not true. The text is being copied, the media is not. Anyone, anywhere in the world, can put tracking pixels on Lemmy posts at any time to log user data. Regardless of the instance used to read it.
OK, remove the media from my "everything" statement. It's still lots of personal data that is being copied to foreign instances.
Then it should be the responsibility of the EU people to avoid joining the fediverse. I do not see a practical way to align with GDPR. The effort is non-trivial and the rewards are extremely minimal.
From your perspective, what should be the way out?
Then it should be the responsibility of the EU people to avoid joining the fediverse.
The instances are providing their services in the EU, so it's legally up to them to comply with the GDPR.
From your perspective, what should be the way out?
Honestly, no idea. I'm not even sure if Lemmy in its current shape violates the GDPR in the first place, but if I were the admin of a large feddit instance in the EU I would make sure to get advise from a GDPR consultant.
But when a lemmy.world user subscribes to a feddit.de community, the entire community will be copied to the lemmy.world server, or am I wrong?
You are indeed wrong. The email and IP addresses and passwords for example don't get copied. I'm not well versed enough about how it works to go into more detail.
You are indeed wrong. The email and IP addresses and passwords for example don’t get copied.
I never said that IP addresses and passwords were getting copied.
The thing that no one seems to understand here is that all my posts, comments and votes and everything are my personal data. My data can be public, but it’s still MY data and I have the right to decide what happens with it and if it should stay public. That’s what the GDPR says and that’s exactly what OP is referring to.
If what you say is true, then... Email is illegal in the EU. EMAIL.
Yeah, no, GDPR, although well intentioned against large corporate entities that have all the power in centralized system, is a relic in the context of federated technology. It is both completely unenforceable, and also not really relevant.
If what you say is true, then… Email is illegal in the EU. EMAIL.
No, but there are actually certain things you need to take into consideration when it comes to GDPR and email.
What the GDPR says:
Data erasure is a large part of the GDPR. It is one of the six data protection principles: Article 5(e) states that personal data can be stored for “no longer than is necessary for the purposes for which the personal data are processed.” Data erasure is also one of the personal rights protected by the GDPR in Article 17, the famous “right to be forgotten.” “The data subject shall have the right to obtain from the controller the erasure of personal data concerning him or her without undue delay.” There are some exceptions to this latter requirement, such as the public interest. But generally speaking, you have an obligation to erase personal data you no longer need.
What it means for email: Many of us never delete emails. There are plenty of good reasons: We may need to refer to them someday as a record of our activities or even for possible litigation. But the more data you keep, the greater your liability if there’s a data breach. Moreover, the erasure of unneeded personal data is now required under European law. Because of the GDPR, you should periodically review your organization’s email retention policy with the goal of reducing the amount of data your employees store in their mailboxes. The regulation requires you to be able to show that you have a policy in place that balances your legitimate business interests against your data protection obligations under the GDPR.
https://gdpr.eu/email-encryption/
I still don't see a reason why Lemmy shouldn't be affected by the GDPR and why it's probably not compliant in its current state.
The last paragraph you quoted is in reference to individual responsability and how they access the data. It's equivalent to saying "don't look at at this Fediverse post: you are GDPR compliant!". This only helps you in litigation. We both know that says nothing of where the data can exist. And this is true for any federated system, including email.
It's also completely asinine. Suddenly we need to burn snail mail after reading it? Why receive any mail at all if everything is a giant piece of liability? There's a social contract in communication: a certain assumption that if you give someone a piece of informtion, you are doing just that: giving, not lending. "Lending information" upsets the social structure. GDPR has to be tempered in reality, and this starts even before the fediverse.
Like I said, GDPR is imperfect. It was written in the context of and solves a problem created by centralized institutions and large beaurocracies. It is also completely unenforceable in a decentralized system. It hardly seems relevant anyway.
Realisticalpy speaking, those tempered interpretations are probably already existant, and there is already enough precedent for this to be a nothing burger.
This whole thread is full of interpretations and gut feelings. Literally no one here backs up their claims with any kind of evidence.
Unsurprising considering we are in uncharted territory here.
Absolutely, but many people in this thread are acting like everything was totally clear, fine and well defined already.
sure, but no personal data like email/ IP
The content of comments and post can also contain personal data.
I think you, being an admin of a huge Lemmy instance, would be well advised to educate yourself on the difference between "public" and "personal" when it comes to GDPR compliance. All the data I create here is my personal data, no matter if it's my IP, my mail address, posts, comments or votes and the GDPR says that it's my right to decide what happens with my data and if it should stay public. The fact that I post something publicly doesn't make my data non-personal.
I think you, being an admin of a huge Lemmy instance, would be well advised to educate yourself on the difference between “public” and “personal” when it comes to GDPR compliance.
I'm quite well advised, maybe I`m using wrong terms as EN is not my native language.
OP said
Since the entire goal of the fediverse is “transporting” all data to all servers inside the ActivityPub/fediverse world, the data of a EU member will be transported all over the place.
and says that's a GDPR nightmare (and he's right according to my understanding of the GDPR).
You said:
sure, but no personal data like email/ IP
Which implies that email addresses and IPs were the only personal data that's relevant in terms of the GDPR, which is simply not true.
I think decentralized services like the Fediverse are a new challenge for the GDPR and that OP is absolutely right in expecting this to blow up one day.
Again, please stay educated and up to date about this whole topic. We don't want you to get into trouble for providing something beautiful.