dear republicans, what's the point of alienating every single ally of the US?
dear republicans, what's the point of alienating every single ally of the US?
it's like you believe you can tariff them expecting they won't do the same. Why do you believe the rest of the world is not going to retaliate and why do you believe America can prosper without the rest of the world?
What's the point of having a military alliance with countries you puts tariffs on? That's unfriendly to say the least.
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Why would that be the implication? There's nothing in that statement that suggests it would be the case, calling it "obvious" doesn't make it so.
The equivalent action of Russia interfering with the West's population is obviously the West interfering with the Russian population. If you want to say you were implying Western interference in its own population, sure, then you could've made that clearer. Nothing changes though because we still don't control information or punish opposing views internally as they do, obviously.
But feel free to send as much evidence of Western bot farms as I can easily send of Russian ones.
But the group of people we were talking about about being influenced was Americans, so it would be fairly natural to assume that I was talking about them influencing our own population, or that I was leaving it ambiguous. If you wanted to jump to the conclusion otherwise, you should've clarified.
I have no idea why were're limiting "propaganda" to "bot farms" which aren't a particularly effective form of it. Every US media outlet has a vested interest in falling in line behind what the president wants because otherwise they could be refused access to things like press briefings, something Trump is especially blatant about. The US media was fully supportive of the Iraq war and published countless lies promoting it, the NYT made up a story about "mass rapes" claimed to be conducted by Palestinians to justify the government's support for the war, going back further, into periods where we have access to declassified stuff, the US government literally had a mind control program called MK Ultra specifically about trying to brainwash people.
Of course, it has also conducted misinformation campaigns in other countries. Recently, the US government was spreading COVID/vaccine disinformation in the Philippines. During the Iranian coup that ousted democratic leader Mohammad Mossadegh in favor of a right-wing dictator, the CIA admitted that it had taken control of virtually every newspaper and media outlet in the country, used to manufacture discontent. If they can stuff like overseas, then they can do it at home too.
Furthermore, these intelligence agencies have interests that are more directly contrary to the American people than the Russian government does. They represent the interests of the rich, and the US rich are the most direct and primary enemy of the US poor. And yet, I never hear any libs express even the slightest ounce of concern that the most well funded intelligence network in the world, with an atrocious historical record showing that they have both the means and motive to suppress democracy, might be something to be concerned about. We should only worry about a less well-funded, less connected intelligence community with less directly opposed interests, because, what? They're foreigners?
But the group of people we were talking about about being influenced was Americans, so it would be fairly natural to assume that I was talking about them influencing our own population, or that I was leaving it ambiguous. If you wanted to jump to the conclusion otherwise, you should’ve clarified.
If your statements are ambiguous then, don't be surprised if people pick one of the more obvious possible meanings. I'm not the one who has to clarify your statements. Regardless, nothing changes. Russian influences both their domestic and western populations more than the West influences their domestic or Russian populations. The West has freedom of information flows the likes of which the Russians have never known in their whole useless, pillaging, and degenerate existence. Even under clowns like Trump, the US press is more free than Russia's.
the US government was spreading COVID/vaccine disinformation in the Philippines.
I wouldn't use the trash that Trump pulls as valid examples of how the West acts, US leaders don't typically threaten allies with takeover or bend over to Russia. He's indisputably an anti-western piece of shit that falls into the same bucket as Putin. Other than that, try not to fetch US examples from the cold war as valid comparisons to contemporary actors like Putin, otherwise it just seems like you're stretching. It's been generations, expectations of international behavior aren't the same.
Furthermore, these intelligence agencies have interests that are more directly contrary to the American people than the Russian government does. They represent the interests of the rich, and the US rich are the most direct and primary enemy of the US poor.
Really? Russian kleptocracy aligns more with its population and doesn't represent the interests of the rich? The country that still lacks indoor plumbing for ~20% of the population? The country that is throwing its people into the meat grinder to steal foreign land? Good one.
We should only worry about a less well-funded, less connected intelligence community with less directly opposed interests, because, what? They’re foreigners?
Because they're destroying democracies in your region. "less directly opposed interests"? only if you're a vatnik lmao. If you are though, feel free to buy the first ticket to Moscovia, assuming you're not there already.
Even under clowns like Trump, the US press is more free than Russia’s.
Which again raises the question of why Russian propaganda is so much more effective in the Western media environment where they can't censor things or control shit than Western propaganda is. See, you're distracted by a need to say, "Russia is the bad guy" that you're losing sight of the actual question.
I wouldn’t use the trash that Trump pulls as valid examples of how the West acts
Other than that, try not to fetch US examples from the cold war
No present or historical examples then, got it.
When did the US reform and change it's ways? Did a president stand up to the CIA and tell them to cut it out? Which one, when? Was anyone in the intelligence community held accountable for their actions and actually punished? Who, when?
Or did the US stop doing evil stuff right around the window of time where documents would not yet be declassified?
Putting aside all of that, even if I accepted your absurd constraints, I also raised points that fit your criteria, regarding the war in Iraq. Things that track with a consistent pattern of behavior before and after.
Russian kleptocracy aligns more with its population and doesn’t represent the interests of the rich?
I never said anything like that. What I said is that Russian kleptocracy is less directly opposed to the interests of the American people than the US kleptocracy is. The Russian oligarchs don't suppress our wages, bust our unions, and gouge our prices, not because there's any kind of moral difference but because they're not in a position to do so. The American oligarchs are the ones with both the means and motive to hurt the American people, they are, therefore, the primary enemy of the people, moreso than Russian oligarchs are to us. It's not about one group being morally superior to another.
Because they’re destroying democracies in your region.
In "my region?" My region is about as far away from Ukraine as it's possible to be on planet Earth.
Which again raises the question of why Russian propaganda is so much more effective in the Western media environment where they can’t censor things or control shit than Western propaganda is. See, you’re distracted by a need to say, “Russia is the bad guy” that you’re losing sight of the actual question.
No, you're just asking dumb shit for the sake of asking it. The West just isn't shitting out propaganda on its population the way Russia is, it's not hard to understand.
The Russian oligarchs don’t suppress our wages, bust our unions, and gouge our prices, not because there’s any kind of moral difference but because they’re not in a position to do so.
They don't because they're not in charge of your fucking country. But they do all that shit and worse to their own population. Russian kleptocracy is incomparably worse to whatever equivalent you want to draw in the US. Wtf are you on about.
In “my region?” My region is about as far away from Ukraine as it’s possible to be on planet Earth.
Which might explain why you're so blissfully ignorant of the Russian scourge.
No, you’re just asking dumb shit for the sake of asking it. The West just isn’t shitting out propaganda on its population the way Russia is, it’s not hard to understand.
A KGB agent visits America and meets a CIA agent, and says, "I'm so excited to learn from the American methods of propaganda!" The CIA agent responds, "What? But in America, we have no propaganda!" KGB agent slams on the table and says, "Yes! Exactly like that!"
I already cited numerous examples of US propaganda and dinsinformation which included ones that fit your arbitrary criteria of neither too recent nor too old. There's also shit like this recruitment ad that's pretty open and explicit about manipulating public opinion. Also like we explicitly have psyop divisions. It's also just a completely absurd idea, we don't do propaganda because, what, we're "the good guys?" Not how the world works lol, incredibly naive take.
They don’t because they’re not in charge of your fucking country.
Please stop telling me things I just told you. Literally in the part you quoted and were responding to, I said, "because they’re not in a position to do so."
But they do all that shit and worse to their own population.
But I'm not part of that population.
Again, you're misunderstanding me. I'm in no way claiming a moral difference between Russian and American billionaires, I'm merely pointing out that the more direct enemy of the American people are the set of billionaires with the means and motive to exploit us, namely, American billionaires.
Which might explain why you’re so blissfully ignorant of the Russian scourge.
More importantly, it would explain why Americans in general were always bound to lose interest in the conflict and give up on it, we just had to waste a bunch of blood and treasure on the conflict pretending otherwise first.
I already cited numerous examples of US propaganda and dinsinformation which included ones that fit your arbitrary criteria of neither too recent nor too old.
I don't remember you citing anything that falls into the criteria, which isn't arbitrary btw, it should be obvious that it's fucking stupid to rely on examples from decades ago if you're comparing it to another nations current actions.
here’s also shit like this recruitment ad that’s pretty open and explicit about manipulating public opinion.
Are you actually comparing a recruitment ad to Russia's media manipulation, crackdowns, and foreign interference? kill me
It’s also just a completely absurd idea, we don’t do propaganda because, what, we’re “the good guys?” Not how the world works lol, incredibly naive take.
Good thing I didn't say any of that shit. If you could stop building strawmen out of my arguments because you can't actually tackle any of them, that would be great.
Please stop telling me things I just told you. Literally in the part you quoted and were responding to, I said, “because they’re not in a position to do so.”
Then stop saying stupid shit if you're not making any substantive points? What's the point of saying they don't do shit to you because they're not in a position to do so? wow, thanks for the enlightening insight.
But I’m not part of that population.
Bro, this isn't about YOU. If you want to objectively compare how each government treats their own population, then the fact that the foreign government doesn't affect YOU isn't fucking relevant you moron (even though they do affect you via election interference/propaganda, but sure).
I don’t remember you citing anything that falls into the criteria,
COVID misinformation in the Philippines? The rampant lies leading up to the Iraq War? Those things fit your criteria.
Also, don't try to pretend that you're only excluding historical examples, you're also excluding recent examples, because "Trump isn't representative of America." Who knows what you'll exclude next, maybe Bush isn't representative either because he lied and that contradicts your worldview.
Also very funny to me that you'll exclude history from like 40 years ago but cite history from 80 years ago (WWII) as still relevant.
Then stop saying stupid shit if you’re not making any substantive points? What’s the point of saying they don’t do shit to you because they’re not in a position to do so? wow, thanks for the enlightening insight.
If you were able to shut down the hyper-partisan moralistic urge to constantly opine on who the "good guys" and "bad guys" are long enough to actually listen to anything I'm saying and look at reality as it is, then you'd understand my point. As it is, you've missed it completely.
I'm not interested in discussing, like, who's more likely to get into fucking heaven. Christ. It's completely and totally irrelevant to the conversation.
If one person has a gun pressed against my head, and another person doesn't, then I'm more concerned about the guy with the gun against my head than the other guy. Maybe the other guy is a worse person, maybe the guy with a gun to my head volunteers at the soup kitchen every day and the other guy kicks puppies, but my concern is removing the gun from my head.
What I'm saying is that American billionaires have a gun to the head of the American people in a way that Russian billionaires don't. And your response is to talk about how the Russian billionaires are bad people and have guns to other people's heads. Irrelevant to the conversation.
Bro, this isn’t about YOU
Yeah, it's not about me specifically. It's about my class, which has the same material interests as me. If you want to write off my class because it's "not about us" then, you know, good luck in the next election.
If you want to objectively compare how each government treats their own population
I don't, thanks. Why would I? I'm interested in pursuing political objectives that help me and my class. I'm not interested in evaluating each country moralistically and then picking a team to stan like it's football or something.
Also very funny to me that you’ll exclude history from like 40 years ago but cite history from 80 years ago (WWII) as still relevant.
It's funny to you because you're too stupid to know the difference between comparing similar tactics used between Hitler and Putin VERSUS using ancient-ass cold war events to justify a contemporary opinion.
I don’t, thanks. Why would I?
Well it seemed like you were very much willing to carrying water for the actions of the Russian state by saying that the US does the same things, if not even worse. Suddenly you have no interest in comparing them? Try having the ability to follow a conversation before engaging in one.
It’s funny to you because you’re too stupid to know the difference between comparing similar tactics used between Hitler and Putin VERSUS using ancient-ass cold war events to justify a contemporary opinion.
If the cold war is "ancient ass" what does that make Hitler? "Prehistoric ass?"
Completely arbitrary, of the example serves your position is fine, if it serves my position it doesn't count. You're just throwing out anything and everything that doesn't confirm your preconceived beliefs.
Well it seemed like you were very much willing to carrying water for the actions of the Russian state by saying that the US does the same things, if not even worse. Suddenly you have no interest in comparing them? Try having the ability to follow a conversation before engaging in one.
You telling me to "try having the ability to follow a conversation" is pretty rich considering how you're constantly losing the plot and getting distracted by moralizing, like you're doing here. You assumed that my goal was to "carry water for" the Russian state by talking about the bad things the US does. No, not really. I don't particularly care which is worse between the two, at no point have I ever attempted to make that case. You assumed that was my angle, because that's how you see the world, but that's not how I see the world and I've told you that over and over again.